Thermocompensated Citizen movements (Cal.0330G and Cal.E510G) tested on the Witschi QT6000 - Page 4
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Thread: Thermocompensated Citizen movements (Cal.0330G and Cal.E510G) tested on the Witschi QT6000

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  1. #31
    Member Mechanikus's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    The test with Witschi at Ppaulusz was very interesting. I have summarised the results and attached the picturres of the measurements taken. You can find it here:

    Makszy's view on horology - Accuracy and Development
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  2. #32
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanikus View Post
    The test with Witschi at Ppaulusz was very interesting. I have summarised the results and attached the picturres of the measurements taken. You can find it here:

    Makszy's view on horology - Accuracy and Development

    Very nice!

    However I believe a better English translation for the label on the column with the quartz ultrasonic results would be (instead of 'Inhibition') something like 'raw quartz rate before inhibition' or some variation around those words ...

  3. #33
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    Very nice!

    However I believe a better English translation for the label on the column with the quartz ultrasonic results would be (instead of 'Inhibition') something like 'raw quartz rate before inhibition' or some variation around those words ...
    That is right. There were two kinds of measurements:
    - Measurement of the raw quartz crystal (that works only with 32kHz movements - in the case of the Spring-Drive the opening of the watchcase might be needed) by the acoustic sensor and that means a state before inhibition (bypassing the inhibition).
    - Measurement of the stepping motor (works with all kind of analog quartz watch, except the Spring-Drive) by the magnetic sensor and in case of inhibition it shows the state after the inhibition/correction (the correct inhibition period or multiply of it needs to be applied for the setting of the duration of the measurement).
    Last edited by ppaulusz; November 21st, 2010 at 19:05. Reason: spelling

  4. #34
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    However I believe what we see is the 'generic inhibition' that is most likely present in any modern 10$ watch with a Miyota movement - I would actually be very curious what you could see on something like that (Q&Q for instance).
    ...
    Actually do not disregard that at all but instead rephrase it (it seems that even after only 4 hours of sleep after a party there was a part of my brain that was getting things instinctively - the other part that was supposed to explain those in words and ideas seems to have been more affected ) - I believe we see a generic 10 seconds inhibition used for raw rate correction coupled with a independent 2-frequency-variable-fill-factor TC method which seems to be a slightly more modern version of the method used in the older 27xx calibers!

    Once you realize that the Witschi ultrasonic numbers have a certain variability/error (normal given the very weak/noisy signal that is measured) and you connect the dots with Moleman's data you see how that is precisely the case!

  5. #35
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    Actually do not disregard that at all but instead rephrase it (it seems that even after only 4 hours of sleep after a party there was a part of my brain that was getting things instinctively - the other part that was supposed to explain those in words and ideas seems to have been more affected ) - I believe we see a generic 10 seconds inhibition used for raw rate correction coupled with a independent 2-frequency-variable-fill-factor TC method which seems to be a slightly more modern version of the method used in the older 27xx calibers!

    Once you realize that the Witschi ultrasonic numbers have a certain variability/error (normal given the very weak/noisy signal that is measured) and you connect the dots with Moleman's data you see how that is precisely the case!
    Let's subject a Cal.27xx to the Witschi test! If it behaves like the already tested current Citizen movements (A610, E510, 0330) then you got it right, if it behaves differently (eg: shows no sign of inhibition) then you got it wrong. It's really that simple, isn't it? Now, it's time to find an affordable Citizen with Cal.27xx...

  6. #36
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    Let's subject a Cal.27xx to the Witschi test! If it behaves like the already tested current Citizen movements (A610, E510, 0330) then you got it right, if it behaves differently (eg: shows no sign of inhibition) then you got it wrong. It's really that simple, isn't it? Now, it's time to find an affordable Citizen with Cal.27xx...
    Of course that is again wrong - just as in the other thread - you are still not quite understanding the difference from what 'inhibition' does for rate adjustment and what it does in digital thermo-compensation!


  7. #37
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    Let's subject a Cal.27xx to the Witschi test! If it behaves like the already tested current Citizen movements (A610, E510, 0330) then you got it right, if it behaves differently (eg: shows no sign of inhibition) then you got it wrong. It's really that simple, isn't it? Now, it's time to find an affordable Citizen with Cal.27xx...
    Looks like the test of the Cal.27xx won't be needed after all... See post #28 here:
    2011 HEQ summary

  8. #38
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    Of course that is again wrong - just as in the other thread - you are still not quite understanding the difference from what 'inhibition' does for rate adjustment and what it does in digital thermo-compensation!
    I had read this thread first then replied here then read the other thread. Obviously I could not have forseen what was happening in the other thread when I replied here.
    Post #37 in this thread explains everything about the above pretty well.
    Last edited by ppaulusz; January 2nd, 2011 at 23:20. Reason: spelling

  9. #39
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    Actually do not disregard that at all but instead rephrase it (it seems that even after only 4 hours of sleep after a party there was a part of my brain that was getting things instinctively - the other part that was supposed to explain those in words and ideas seems to have been more affected ) - I believe we see a generic 10 seconds inhibition used for raw rate correction coupled with a independent 2-frequency-variable-fill-factor TC method which seems to be a slightly more modern version of the method used in the older 27xx calibers!

    Once you realize that the Witschi ultrasonic numbers have a certain variability/error (normal given the very weak/noisy signal that is measured) and you connect the dots with Moleman's data you see how that is precisely the case!

    Since apparently for many people the 2-frequency-variable-fill-factor TC method described in the old Citizen 27xx manual might be 'not so obvious' I will describe it in very few words - basically the method works by having one quartz in a slightly more complex oscillating circuit which can be 'commuted' between two states - one in which a single capacitor is added (with one resulting frequency) and one in which two capacitors are added (with a slightly different resulting frequency) - hence the 2-frequency part. Now if you take a slightly longer interval and divide it variably into two sub-intervals and during the first sub-interval you only activate the first capacitor and then during the second sub-intervals you activate both capacitors you will generate a resulting frequency which is a linear combination of the two base frequencies - and by changing the fill-factor you can generate a resulting frequency almost anywhere in between the two base frequencies! (and by changing the fill factor depending on the actual temperature you can compensate for the changes in frequency resulted from the quartz dependency on temperature plus eventually some other parts of the oscillating circuit).

    In the case of the 'modern' Citizen TC calibers that frequency is fine-tuned to an extreme point but NOT to precisely 32768 Hz but instead to something different and apparently odd-looking - let's take an example like 32770.1 Hz (which is about 5.54 seconds/day fast) and then 'fed' as raw input to potentially any caliber that supports what Citizen calls DFC (Digital Frequency Count - which is just raw rate inhibition) - and for instance in that caliber every 10 seconds a certain number of clocks are skipped - in our case about 21 (the number is specific to each watch but does not vary with the temperature or anything), with the end result of a frequency very-very close to 32768 Hz with a precision in the 5-10 s/y range (the numbers that I used are actual values extrapolated from the E510 numbers on the Witschi test numbers provided above in this thread).
    Last edited by Catalin; January 2nd, 2011 at 23:26.

  10. #40
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    Re: Thermocompensated Citizen movements (Cal.0330G and Cal.E510G) tested on the Witschi QT6000

    Hi everyone. I have a watch (that I'm not sure is an HAQ).

    It is a Citizen Exceed. On the face is 2720 and on the case it is marked 2730.

    Was it common to have the case and the dial with different calibre numbers like this? Even though it is still a 27XX? And is my watch an HAQ? Thanks

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