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Seiko made in Japan or not...

166K views 135 replies 46 participants last post by  Dr. Who84 
#1 ·
Hi,
I have recently seen several comments by fellow forumers indicating that there is no difference between the SKX007 J and K models. The former was supposedly made and assembled in Japan whereas the latter was manufactured in Singapore or China or wherever, but I am not even sure of this as some say that the J models aren't even assembled in Japan anymore.

I wanted to ask the same question of the 6309 divers...

Is there any difference (quality or otherwise) between the models that are marked Japan on the back and front as opposed to those that are not?
It would appear that the later models no longer had the Japan markings (possibly because Seiko had then moved factory to cheaper labour location?).

And then further to that is there any difference between the 6309 7040 models and the 7049 models (these were apparantly for export to the USA)?

Thank you in advance.

Best regards,
G.
 
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#2 ·
Firstly, the J and K designations do not indicate where a particular watch was made or assembled; only what market they were intended for.

The same applies to the older designations like 7040 vs 7040; intended market not location of manufacture. In fact most of these watches were made in the same plants on the same assembly lines and then supplied with the case back appropriate for the market into which it was going to be sold.

Secondly all Seiko watches are made and assembled to Seiko standards irrespective of location.

Today only the high end calibers are actually made in Japan and they are of obviously better quality to start with :-!
 
#123 · (Edited)
Actually, this is mistaken. The J and K designations do indeed indicate where the watches were made (or more accurately assembled, as the parts can be from anywhere.) I could find absolutely no evidence to support that K and J models are sold exclusively in any specific countries. On the contrary, J, K, and even P (Japan mvmt. cased in China) are officially sold alongside each other in virtually all markets around the world. And not just in the gray market. Although there may be a trend for J models to be sold in higher priced markets and K models to be sold in lower priced markets, which has nothing to do with import laws. Most lines nowadays seem to be either K or J, but not both. At one time, the Seiko 5 line was the primary one that sold both J and K versions of the same models, but since 2019 it offers only K. The Seiko 5 line is not sold in the US at all.

Here is some supporting data from Seiko's own worldwide websites.
https://www.seikowatches.com/us-en/products
https://www.seikoboutique.co.uk
https://www.seikowatches.com/fr-fr
https://seiko.ru
https://www.thongsia.com.ms
https://www.thongsia.com.hk
 
#3 ·
Usually Seikos that are put together in Japan will have "MADE IN JAPAN" on the edge of dial between the 6 and 7 o'clock markers. Other countries are usually identified on the case back following the words "MADE IN". Name of countries by themselves or with the abbreviation "MOV.", either on the dial's edge or case back or the movement itself, identify where the movement was made and not necessarily where the entire watch was manufactured. By the way, Japan made Seikos come in most price categories and are not really limited to their high-end models. Oh, goody! This gives me a good excuse to show off my SNZB23 again. Enjoy!
 
#4 ·
Unless that is an old vintage model, it is highly unlikely it was manufactured, assembled and cased in Japan or else it would have cost over $1000.

The words on the dial and case back are legaleze for import/export reasons and are not indicative of where a watch was actually made. The cost of labour in Japan precludes any entry level Seiko watches from actually being made in that country.

That being said, every Seiko at whatever price point is equal in quality no matter where the parts were stamped out, where they were assembled or where the whole thing was cased up. Seiko has a rigid set of manufacturing standards that all factories adhere to.
 
#5 ·
I used to be rather cautious with items 'Made in China' however there's no need to worry.

People often associate items 'Made in China' with cheap factories, child labor and/or lack of skill and thus low quality stuff. But the people assembling watches in China are anything but your average Happy Meal toy makers. The people working in Seiko factories are trained, work in Seiko factories with the right equipment and cleanrooms and earn significantly more than the average chinese labourer. But someone who earns 5 times the average wage in china is still 4 times as cheap as a Japanese craftsman.

Same goes for companies like Sony, Microsoft and even 'Swedish' Ikea furniture.
My Xbox is 10 year old and still runs fine, my Ps3 is 5 year old and looks brand new and I have some Ikea furniture that has had more blow than Mike Tyson functioning fine and still looking excellent.

Ofcourse there's a difference in quality but you'll be paying for it dearly, even affordable Tissot watches (Made in Swiss) start at whereabout $400 for the simplest designs, so the biggest difference is price.
 
#7 ·
I used to be rather cautious with items 'Made in China' however there's no need to worry.

People often associate items 'Made in China' with cheap factories, child labor and/or lack of skill and thus low quality stuff. But the people assembling watches in China are anything but your average Happy Meal toy makers. The people working in Seiko factories are trained, work in Seiko factories with the right equipment and cleanrooms and earn significantly more than the average chinese labourer. But someone who earns 5 times the average wage in china is still 4 times as cheap as a Japanese craftsman.

Same goes for companies like Sony, Microsoft and even 'Swedish' Ikea furniture.
My Xbox is 10 year old and still runs fine, my Ps3 is 5 year old and looks brand new and I have some Ikea furniture that has had more blow than Mike Tyson functioning fine and still looking excellent.

Ofcourse there's a difference in quality but you'll be paying for it dearly, even affordable Tissot watches (Made in Swiss) start at whereabout $400 for the simplest designs, so the biggest difference is price.
Stevie there are QC issues with chinese products posted at wus on an almost hourly basis but thanks any way for the laughs.
 
#6 ·
You are going to find 2 sides of the spectrum with this question. I just recently bought my very 1st Seiko and shortly after another diver. I had to option of choosing the cheaper K model of the J; and finally decided to go for the Made in Japan model.
2 things to consider:
  1. Resale value - If you ever decide to part or trade a Seiko; a Japan made model will yield a bit more advantage.
  2. Knowing the Japanese culture for a few years; I can tell you that you can export technology, but you cannot export the Japanese state of mind to achieve perfection thus another reason I rather buy Japanese made.

As previously stated, be careful about the J. Does not always indicate that it has been made in Japan.
 

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#8 ·
Incontestable fact, long since discussed and beaten to death here: J and K, "made in" and "MVT assembled" are based on where Seiko plans to export to and sell a product via their AD network (gray mkt does not apply). This is based upon what various countries require for imported watches. Very few Seiko's are "made in Japan", certainly not a 5. Seiko mfg's and assembles in numerous factories throughout Asia. All watches within the same model are typically made in the same factory, regardless of what dial is used. Same for movements. Seiko may move production from time to time. A 4r36 seems to have some final mod or assembly done in Japan, hence models with that MVT for sale in the US AD network say "MVT Japan". Per US law. They are not really made in Japan, as that implies.
 
#10 ·
You mean that a Seiko 5 with a 4207 calibre is not really made in Japan, even if it is marked as such on the dial?

(I insist on buying a Japanese-made watch for my wife.) I found one on Amazon that ships to Europe (UK, at least)
but I'm too new here to be able to post links. It's a SYMG71J1 (there's only one result if searched on Amazon, to circumvent
my limitation with links).
 
#14 ·
I have found another thread with some very interesting insights (again, I'm too new here to be able to post links so I quote):

<<".....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. Generally speaking, watches priced below about 90000 yen (currently $838 US dollars) do not contain enough profit margin to be made in Japan. This is not just for Seiko, but for all major Japanese manufacturers. Watches priced roughly from 90000 to 250000 yen (currently $838 to 2328 US dollars) are often finished or with final assembly done in Japan and higher end watches above this point are often fully assembled in Japan. .....">>

Taken from a thread named "Where Seiko Watches Are Really Made - A Juicy Mistake", post was made by "jayhall0315" and it quotes a Seiko employee.

It seems that I should choose based exclusively on design and not fuss about MIJ anymore.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm no expert, but do have an interest in this topic. mrfourcows, how does my Turtle fit with your theory? I will open the case some day. Thanks.
We've been over this number of times before in the WIS-dom, plenty of threads even on this forum.

And your MIJ Turtle isn't made in Japan, sorry. It's made in Seiko subsidiary factory in one of the other Asian countries, but not Japan. Best bet is Malaysia but it may well be China.
 
#28 ·
Do you know what 'JAPAN WP' means? It's on the back of my SKX009J.
 
#22 ·
meh... I'd like to see more transparent labeling requirements.. but that would of course require pretty much global agreements.. which seem unlikely currently... or ever..

for whatever it is worth my SRP637K is probably the best built Seiko diver I own. .. currently have 009,A35, Franken 7002 and the SRP637

The 637 doesn't say BOO about where it was made.. on dial or case back.. maybe Malaysia maybe china?? who knows?? still it is a quite nice watch.. current global production realities make it sure that no highly skilled Japanese artisans are building your sub $1,000 diver watch.. fact..

Watch Watch accessory Footwear Fashion accessory Analog watch
 
#35 · (Edited)
Not a nice look, especially for an expensive Limited Edition watch, regardless of the brand.

Call me old-fashioned but "China" isn't something I'd like to see either on the back or front of my watch, sorry.
 
#37 ·
They're lot more educated these days, though. There's plenty on this topic already written and available on the Web for those with slightly wider attention span and still able to read rather that just look at photos.
There will be still many posting here now and in the future about their 'surprise' their watch wasn't made in Japan.
 
#39 · (Edited)
If I buy a Japanese companies' product, I want it made in JAPAN...if I wanted a product made in USA, I would buy a USA brand car...I will NOT buy a Japanese car made in the USA....if I want a CHINESE made watch, I'd have no problem buying one of the newer Seikos or Casios....

Why is it when people want a Japanese made product actually MADE in Japan,other people get so damn bent out of shape? If you have no problem buying a Seiko "cased" in China,go for it, but quit flipping people grief when they DONT want a Chinese Seiko....
 
#42 ·
Hmmm ... so you don't own a car then. Or a Canon, Nikon, or Fuji digital camera. No Sony, Toshiba, or Samsung TV. No LG, Whirlpool, or GE appliances. No Nike, Reebok, Asics, or Allen Edmonds shoes. Not even a Swiss watch. Or an Apple cell phone. No Thinkpad, iPad, or MacBook, or HP computer.

Hey, how do you get on the internet to comment here?
 
#44 · (Edited)
oh for the love of god look on the back of pretty much any stereo receiver / TV ...etc electronics from any "Japanese" brand.. if you are super lucky it may have been built in Malaysia or Thailand but more frequently China...

The U.S. prospered after the war and priced ourselves out of manufacturing consumer goods (mostly) , then the Japanese came along and did the same thing.. It isn't profitable to build most watches (other than higher end) or tv's or stereo..etc in Japan ..isn't viable economically...

Not sure if you just Rip Van Winkle'd your way from the mid 90s but the but the globalization fight has been basically lost for 2 decades here...(more really).

Amusingly the pricing yourself out of consumer goods manufacture is starting to happen to China as well as labor costs ..etc are rising...

a lot of "Swiss Made" watches are more or less Chinese at the end of the day also... GM is building some SUV or other in China now...

I'm also curious how you got on the internet with non Chinese built computer/tablet..etc.??? My Filco Keyboard costs about 5x times more than most keyboards ~ish but it was built in Taiwan if that makes you feel any better.
 
#49 ·
oh for the love of god look on the back of pretty much any stereo receiver / TV ...etc electronics from any "Japanese" brand.. if you are super lucky it may have been built in Malaysia or Thailand but more frequently China...

I'm also curious how you got on the internet with non Chinese built computer/tablet..etc.??? My Filco Keyboard costs about 5x times more than most keyboards ~ish but it was built in Taiwan if that makes you feel any better.
Mate, how is Thailand, or Malaysia, or Taiwan much better than China?

Just as an example, Apple builds in China by a contractor (not their own production plant). And their products are deem one the of finest and most desirable... explain that please.
 
#46 ·
Personally, I prefer my watches to not be made in China, but I'm fine with my car or computer to be made in China. I'll be changing cars or computers every 5 years or less, so they are purely consumable goods to me, whereas my watches I'll likely hold onto them for far longer, and I buy them not for purely practical use purpose but to appreciate their craftsmanship. Having said that, it all depends on the price point as well, a $200 beater watch is fine to be made in China, but not at beyond $1000
 
#58 ·
Agree with nepatriot, the made in China today has nothing to do with the made in China ten years ago...but for the big brands mainly, for they invested a lot for their quality standard, the problem, psychologically speaking, if I dare say :) since all the crap in the world are also made in this same country, China, all the "made in China" are wrongly tainted with the same incredibly negative perception.
 
#59 ·
Since this is the most recent discussion I am posting here, but am linking this parallel post for more diverse and equally *accurate* facts.
I am not claiming I have solved anything with regard to "J" "K" but I may have come a bit closer to divining the veracity of the Made In Japan conspiracy.
There is one (trusted) sourceI found and from which I've drawn some relevant information (all of the following are relevant ONLY to import into the U.S.):

* U.S. Customs and Border Protection Let's begin with the USCBP, click the link, scroll down to Pg 8 and you will find this:

"• Under 19 U.S.C.1304, as interpreted by Customs, the country of origin of the movement of the watch or clock determines the country of origin of the watch or clock. Although the addition of the hands, dial, or case adds definition to the timepiece, they do not substantially change the character or use of the watch or clock movement, which is the essence of the watch or clock. Accordingly,a watch with one country of origin for the movement, another for the case, and another for the battery, is considered, for purposes of 19 USC 1304, to be a product of the country in which the movement was produced. The movement's country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back of the watch or clock. "

On Pg. 10 you will find the following:

"• WATCH MOVEMENTS: Must be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show the name of the country of manufacture; the name of the manufacturer or purchaser; and in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical purpose as frictional bearings.

• WATCH CASES: Must be marked on the inside or
outside of the back to show the name of the country of manufacture and the name of manufacturer or purchaser. "

So to summarize (keeping in mind this is ONLY for U.S. importation); The country of origin for "&#8230;a watch&#8230;is considered, for purposes of 19 USC 1304, to be a product of the country in which the movement was produced. " So country of origin made be identified either by a label on the dial (Made In... or MOV'T (or similar) but it has to be marked on the bridge or top plate of the watch as well.

Now all of this, just to say that it ONLY relates to watches being directly imported INTO the U.S. An issue commonly seen here in WUS is grey market watches. Since these watches were not intended to be imported into the U.S. they can be marked essentially any way that Seiko desires. And how Seiko defines Made In.... is I suspect a combination of their own laws/regulations and perhaps generous ones of countries they export to. So if you have a watch that states it's MIJ, and it is an AD watch then according to 19 USC 1304 the movement HAS to have been made in Japan. So it is not unreasonable to assume that the same fully robotic operations used in other countries could be used in Japan to produce mid-level(perhaps) movements, then shipped to another location (country?) for final assembly and finish. After all the U.S. considers the country of origin to be where the MOVEMENT WAS MADE.

People have stated that so long as a factory is fully Japanese owned and supervised (certainly a reasonable approach) that they (Japan) considers those watches produced in those factories to be Made In Japan (I suppose not unlike Embassies-are-considered-Sovereign-Territory). This may or may not be true but it does highlight understanding how various nations can determine origination of products. So it is reasonable to view a watch made in a partner country, in a factory fully owned by the other partner nation and supervised by nationals to be considered as home grown. IF this is the case then Made In Japan becomes a very ephemeral concept. So from a very quick look on ebay it seems that those watches intended for the U.S. (SKX173/175) appear to meet the criteria set forth above. So while an SKX007 may state Made In Japan, it may be based on a vague ruling of what constitutes country of origin. But if a movement is *considered* to be produced in Japan (but in actuality in another nation) then casing it in Japan could allow it to be labeled Made In Japan for export to other countries (excluding the U.S.)

I did NOT come across any explanation for the whole "J" "K" (moon landing) conspiracy thing. It seems logical to assume they define two markets of distribution, but I'm sure someone will point out a day/date language or some other contradictory marking on a watch that would negate this idea.

One final point/discovery and this is in regard to ISO 6425, found in the - Federal Register
Pg. 2, paragraph 3
II. Summary of the Comments
B. Adequacy of Self-Regulation and International Standards

" The comments do not consider the ISO standards to be sufficient to protect consumers primarily because the ISO standards are not enforceable in the United States. ISO does not regulate the international watch industry. Instead, each participating member country enforces the ISO standards in accordance with their own laws. Because the United States is not an adherent to the ISO standards, the comments stated that ISO standards are not enforceable in the United States."

"Swiss also noted that the United States is not a participant in ISO, and therefore, is not
involved in the formulation of ISO watch standards."

So as it stands, while we all quote ISO 6425 and who is or isn't compliant, how it is determined, etc, etc, turns out that the U.S. does NOT follow ISO standards. Instead our national regulating body is ANSI (American National Standards Institute, which can and does reflect ISO standards as needed). The linked article was in regard to whether or not the U.S. FTC should continue printing and maintaining the 'Watch Guide' (which guided watch manufacturers on trade practices). The upshot was that the Watch Guide would be rescinded because there were many ways that watch manufacturer claims could be maintained, checked and 'enforced'. It was decided that Section 5 of FTC ACT offers sufficient protection to consumers via manufacturers claims of compliance to ISO 6425 (and unfair and deceptive practices, etc). So there was no need for the Guide, but interestingly, there never was any real value to it. If a manufacturer claims 6425 compliance they are required to possess documentation verifying said claims.
So really, to claim to be ISO 6425 (at least in the U.S.) doesn't carry as much weight as one would think and, one could claim to exceed those claims without being 6425 compliant. They only need to show documentation that their testing meets or exceeds (I think Rolex does this?) ISO 6425. Just an interesting tid bit I came across while searching for the MIJ ephemera.
YMMV
 
#60 · (Edited)
As a I recently posted:

Out of curiosity, and being entirely irritated by the complete lack of helpful information in the eternal 'what does Made in Japan' mean on my Seiko' threads (in the main), I emailed Seiko Japan today and asked (giving them the model/serial for my SKX011J as an example).

I got a very polite reply advising me that the 'Made in Japan' marking means that the watch was manufactured in Seiko's production facilities in Japan, but that does not necessarily mean every single part or component was completely was completely manufactured in Japan. I'm happy with that and it is consistent with my understanding of the country of origin labelling laws relating to watches. Quite simply, if, as internet scuttlebutt likes to proclaim, Seiko is telling giant lies, it would be breaching the quite clear law in most countries it exports to (including, from a quick google, the large Arabic-speaking countries I looked at (Arabic date disk), and risk a range of nasty repercussions, not limited to customer claims for misleading and deceptive conduct, as well rejection of goods by customs, and presumably, fines), so that theory has never held any water.

Not that any of the above has much significance I'm sure (I've no doubt the manufacturing and assembly process is, as near as dammit, identical wherever), but the idea that 'Made in Japan' was simply printed on watches destined for certain markets and the watch had never so much as visited Japan always rankled.

Cheers!

EDIT: Like the chap above, this says nothing to J and K. My 2c is this - the recent J's I have seen (SRPs) say Japan Mov't/Movement - it means what it says. The movement is (manufactured in Seiko's production facilities in Japan, but that does not necessarily mean every single part or component was completely was completely manufactured in Japan) would be a sensible guess. My SRP777 K had a label that said Case China, Movement Malaysia.
 
#61 · (Edited)
As a I recently posted:

Out of curiosity, and being entirely irritated by the complete lack of helpful information in the eternal 'what does Made in Japan' mean on my Seiko' threads (in the main), I emailed Seiko Japan today and asked (giving them the model/serial for my SKX011J as an example).

I got a very polite reply advising me that the 'Made in Japan' marking means that the watch was manufactured in Seiko's production facilities in Japan, but that does not necessarily mean every single part or component was completely was completely manufactured in Japan. I'm happy with that and it is consistent with my understanding of the country of origin labelling laws relating to watches. Quite simply, if, as internet scuttlebutt likes to proclaim, Seiko is telling giant lies, it would be breaching the quite clear law in most countries it exports to (including, from a quick google, the large Arabic-speaking countries I looked at (Arabic date disk), and risk a range of nasty repercussions, not limited to customer claims for misleading and deceptive conduct, as well rejection of goods by customs, and presumably, fines), so that theory has never held any water.

Not that any of the above has much significance I'm sure (I've no doubt the manufacturing and assembly process is, as near as dammit, identical wherever), but the idea that 'Made in Japan' was simply printed on watches destined for certain markets and the watch had never so much as visited Japan always rankled.

Cheers!
Youve been fed porkies bro, no SKX are made in japan.

Edit, ive just bumped another recent blog for you on this topic, ive quoted a very explanitary and good post from Don it in about exactly where seiko divers are made.

Not much under the 2k price range is built in Japan, basically none.

SKX divers are entry level and not worth their time to make in japan they are made mainly in china in Seiko factories, its nothing more than a myth that these are made in japan, its just labelling.
 
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