Before & After ✨ - Page 28
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  1. #271
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamburov View Post
    Hi! It's easy to tell you what I use, more difficult to explain the technique I apply it with, and impossible to say if these will work on your dial.
    My favourite cleaning liquid is a cheap rust transforming liquid I get from my local store. It's green in colour, and contains an active ingredient phosphoric acid 25%-35%. It deals well with accumulated old oxidations, but not too agressive to instantly wipe printing and paint. Less aggressive than lemon juice even. It really is my best discovery related to my restoration hobby. And a bottle of it costs less than a dollar. I've disscussed it with a lot of forum friends around the world, and it seems this particular stuff is only produced locally, as I haven't found an adequate alternative outside Bulgaria. Which puzzles me really.
    I've developed a technique to applying it on dials, based on many experiments, but generally it works better on chemmical level (I apply, let it work, and soak it out), than mechanical (apply, then whipe the surface with it). Well, I might do some gentle wiping if I get the feel that the dial will take it.
    If I need to clean an important dial, I find a cheap wasted one, just to practice on it. Then I transfer the experience on the important one.
    I have no experience on Cardi-vostoks, but they are modern watches, and a white dial is always difficult to clean. It depends on the paints and laqueurs osed to produce it. It may well be impossible.
    The vintage soviets are very good to clean, as the paints used are quite tough, and they take cleaning pretty well. A damaged modern white dial may be beyond repair, though.
    I wish I could be more helpful.
    Ivan
    Ivan, I am sure you posted a photo of your magic Bulgarian green solution before when dial cleaning was discussed on a previous thread a couple of years ago. And, I think we found that there wasn't anything directly comparable available in other countries although I think I found something similar in the UK for rust removal.

    I have had a look for the thread but cannot locate it. Can you search for it based on the name of the Bulgarian product?

    Sekondtime

  2. #272
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    Quote Originally Posted by Sekondtime View Post
    Ivan, I am sure you posted a photo of your magic Bulgarian green solution before when dial cleaning was discussed on a previous thread a couple of years ago. And, I think we found that there wasn't anything directly comparable available in other countries although I think I found something similar in the UK for rust removal.

    I have had a look for the thread but cannot locate it. Can you search for it based on the name of the Bulgarian product?

    Sekondtime
    I google searched it and saw some that should be similar, or very close to it. The most accurate term used is "rust converter", wich literaly is also the bulgarian term printed on the bottle:

    Name:  DSC02970.JPG
Views: 274
Size:  2.51 MB

    You can see how the phosphoric acid rust converter looks like. The rust converter is used for metal primer before painting - "...chemically changes the rust (iron oxide) into iron phosphate. The surface produced is an inert, hard and grayish, which will serve as a firm base for paint."

    There's one that is potentially similar, I think in Australia:
    Septone - Rust Treatments - Rust Converter 500mL

    This one has the same color, it seems:
    Septone - Rust Treatments - Rust Converter 500mL

    As for UK, it seems most phosphor acid rust converters are 45% solution, and I can't see the color of the liquid. The one I use is 25%-35%, and I don't know what difference 10-15% higher concentration will make.
    Also they seem to be sold in big bottles. Guess they didn't think someone would use it for wristwatches

    I also guess import/export of such products is tightly controlled, but they seem to be widely produced all over the world and available in local stores.
    Its use for metal primer may give you an idea where to look. It should be fairly cheap, and can also use it for other things in the yard or in the garrage.

    One other thing, it's best for old vintage watches, as it works on the oxidations accumulated through the years. It's not an universal cleaning liquid, and may not be suitable for more modern watches.
    Ivan

  3. #273
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamburov View Post
    I google searched it and saw some that should be similar, or very close to it. The most accurate term used is "rust converter", wich literaly is also the bulgarian term printed on the bottle:

    Name:  DSC02970.JPG
Views: 274
Size:  2.51 MB

    You can see how the phosphoric acid rust converter looks like. The rust converter is used for metal primer before painting - "...chemically changes the rust (iron oxide) into iron phosphate. The surface produced is an inert, hard and grayish, which will serve as a firm base for paint."

    There's one that is potentially similar, I think in Australia:
    Septone - Rust Treatments - Rust Converter 500mL

    This one has the same color, it seems:
    Septone - Rust Treatments - Rust Converter 500mL

    As for UK, it seems most phosphor acid rust converters are 45% solution, and I can't see the color of the liquid. The one I use is 25%-35%, and I don't know what difference 10-15% higher concentration will make.
    Also they seem to be sold in big bottles. Guess they didn't think someone would use it for wristwatches

    I also guess import/export of such products is tightly controlled, but they seem to be widely produced all over the world and available in local stores.
    Its use for metal primer may give you an idea where to look. It should be fairly cheap, and can also use it for other things in the yard or in the garrage.

    One other thing, it's best for old vintage watches, as it works on the oxidations accumulated through the years. It's not an universal cleaning liquid, and may not be suitable for more modern watches.
    Ivan
    Thanks Ivan. Having taken a look with the information above, yes, it does appear to be only sold in large containers here for the automotive repair industry but phosphoric acid can be used for other purposes like flushing water systems and in cheese making! As for the dilution, there is a 45% solution available. It can be further diluted with water. All the containers advise caution in terms of skin, eyes and breathing of fumes.

    An alternative may be to use acetic acid crystals in a solution. This is sold as a descaler and is commonly available. The PH value is slightly less than Phosphoric acid but it dissolves not only polar compounds such as inorganic salts and sugars, but also non-polar compounds such as oils as well as polar solutes according to Wikipedia. It may be worth experimenting.

    Sekondtime

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  5. #274
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    Quote Originally Posted by Sekondtime View Post
    Thanks Ivan. Having taken a look with the information above, yes, it does appear to be only sold in large containers here for the automotive repair industry but phosphoric acid can be used for other purposes like flushing water systems and in cheese making! As for the dilution, there is a 45% solution available. It can be further diluted with water. All the containers advise caution in terms of skin, eyes and breathing of fumes.

    An alternative may be to use acetic acid crystals in a solution. This is sold as a descaler and is commonly available. The PH value is slightly less than Phosphoric acid but it dissolves not only polar compounds such as inorganic salts and sugars, but also non-polar compounds such as oils as well as polar solutes according to Wikipedia. It may be worth experimenting.

    Sekondtime
    The chemical reaction with rust does release bad fumes, and my friends that use it on metal constructions or autoparts complain of it. I use it in very small quantities, on the tip of a toothpick with little cotton on it, so it's relatively safe. The few times I put heavily rusted watches in it the reaction was quite strong (bubbles and all) and smell was quite bad. I don't do that anymore, if it's badly rusted, then it's gone.
    Handling the 40% hydrochloric acid (brass stripping experiment) was far more dangerous.
    Also I don't know what other ingredients are present in the solution I use, as there is a transparrent oily residue sometimes that I have to clean with dry cotton or soft cotton cloth.
    Besides its quality dealing with oxides (cleaning patina and the brown nicotine like layer), the most surprising quality was an entirely different one. Surprisingly some dial print survives it better than it survives other cleaning solutions (acids or bases). When I signed in this forum I heard about lemon juice (citric acid). Tried it and found it's still far too aggressive than the rust converter.
    Its effect is most visible on old copper dials. Works like magic. Hopefully the print is strong, though.
    Ivan

  6. #275
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    Quote Originally Posted by Sekondtime View Post
    Thanks Ivan. Having taken a look with the information above, yes, it does appear to be only sold in large containers here for the automotive repair industry but phosphoric acid can be used for other purposes like flushing water systems and in cheese making! As for the dilution, there is a 45% solution available. It can be further diluted with water. All the containers advise caution in terms of skin, eyes and breathing of fumes.

    An alternative may be to use acetic acid crystals in a solution. This is sold as a descaler and is commonly available. The PH value is slightly less than Phosphoric acid but it dissolves not only polar compounds such as inorganic salts and sugars, but also non-polar compounds such as oils as well as polar solutes according to Wikipedia. It may be worth experimenting.

    Sekondtime
    The chemical reaction with rust does release bad fumes, and my friends that use it on metal constructions or autoparts complain of it. I use it in very small quantities, on the tip of a toothpick with little cotton on it, so it's relatively safe. The few times I put heavily rusted watches in it the reaction was quite strong (bubbles and all) and smell was quite bad. I don't do that anymore, if it's badly rusted, then it's gone.
    Handling the 40% hydrochloric acid (brass stripping experiment) was far more dangerous.
    Also I don't know what other ingredients are present in the solution I use, as there is a transparrent oily residue sometimes that I have to clean with dry cotton or soft cotton cloth.
    Besides its quality dealing with oxides (cleaning patina and the brown nicotine like layer), the most surprising quality was an entirely different one. Surprisingly some dial print survives it better than it survives other cleaning solutions (acids or bases). When I signed in this forum I heard about lemon juice (citric acid). Tried it and found it's still far too aggressive than the rust converter.
    Its effect is most visible on old copper dials. Works like magic. Hopefully the print is strong, though.
    Ivan

  7. #276
    Member EndeavourDK's Avatar
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    I've seen this watch featuring as being "rare", just not sure where?
    Just listed on eBay for the person interested and perhaps likes a challenge ?; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIROVSKIE...-Y:rk:150:pf:0
    Attached Images Attached Images


  8. #277
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    This morning I did (for me) a very interesting project. A few years back I was discussing Superluminova with Sergey (Favinov). Instead of the expensive Superluminova he recommended me to start with the lume-set below. Not as expensive as Superluminova, but still pricey; I think it was around €35. It consist of two bottles milky alike binding fluid and a small bottle of lume powder. Unfortunately I can't find it back on the internet and forgot the name of it
    It works really well, it is bright, retains the light very long and "easy" to apply. I've re-lumed many hands with it .......... however, it is clear to see that the hands are freshly re-lumed.

    These days my interest is more towards the old Soviet watches, so there is a need for a "matching" lume; hands / dial.
    I've done an experiment with soaking a dried re-lumed hand overnight in a strong tea solution. That didn't yield the right result, the metal of the hand had started rusting and the discoloring of the lume was superficial.

    A through and through coloring of the lume mix would be nice and this morning I experimented with adding a tiny grain of dried instant coffee to a droplet of the binding fluid. It just needs a tiny grain to achieve a strong discoloring of the fluid. Then I added & mixed the lume powder and did my first attempt. Probably I mixed a bit too long and the binding fluid became slightly too thick, resulting in a poor job, but this is about the results of the coloring.

    The first picture shows the lume-set. I've done already about 30 hand-sets and the bottles are still "full" ...... so still many sets to go.

    The second picture is from the hands; the top hand has the original CCCP lume, the middle hand is done with the coffee-lume and the bottom hand is re-lumed with the original mix.
    Obviously, the lume on the second hand is poorly done and needs redoing.

    Like to hear what the experts think of the idea and the results
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    Last edited by EndeavourDK; March 9th, 2019 at 11:24. Reason: Spelling
    24h, Avidfan, XsiOn and 3 others like this.

  9. #278
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    An excellent experiment and I think you have done very well. The coffee grain experiment appears to be very close to the original aged USSR hand. Hands from different watches will have a slight colour variation from watch to watch depending on where t has been over time. The more tries you have at matching different colour variations the more expert you will become at matching the colours exactly.

    I am sure that I have seen/read somewhere about colour dyes that you mix with lume.

    Sekondtime

  10. #279
    Member EndeavourDK's Avatar
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    Quote Originally Posted by Sekondtime View Post
    An excellent experiment and I think you have done very well. The coffee grain experiment appears to be very close to the original aged USSR hand. Hands from different watches will have a slight color variation from watch to watch depending on where t has been over time. The more tries you have at matching different color variations the more expert you will become at matching the colours exactly.

    I am sure that I have seen/read somewhere about color dyes that you mix with lume.

    Sekondtime
    Yes, I've been reading about dyes too, but they aren't cheap. As written, it takes only a very little coffee grain to get a big color difference. My first coffee / binding fluid mix was way too dark. I discarded that and took an even a smaller grain. The lume on this original CCCP hand has become dark and therefor, with more luck than wisdom, my 2nd coffee-lume mix ended up pretty close.
    The size of the coffee grain I used the 2nd time had the size of less than a screw of the Vostok 2414 keyless works or that of a screw in the cover-plate of the calendar-works. Obviously the amount of binding fluid mixed is of influence.
    When the original lume hasn't aged / discolored that much, one needs even less coffee. In a way, if one brings the binding fluid just "off-white" that would make in most cases the combination hands/dial already plausible. That's in my perception already sufficient; this is much better than a pure white re-lumed hand, which stick out like a sore thumb, or attempting to get an exact match ( ?)

    Coffee powder, at least in these small amounts, comes very cheap and the coffee grain seems to dissolve completely. It doesn't seem to alter the properties of the binding fluid and it provides a through & through color in the mix. As additional bonus, the lume-mix starts to smell actually good and last-but-not-least with these small amounts of coffee required; you don't need to ask the wife's permission !

    Tonight I'll have a look what the coffee has done to the lume properties
    If the hand lights up bright, I'll continue with my experiment and redo the "test-hand" with a even smaller coffee grain, just enough to bring the binding fluid mix "off-white".

    We'll see what happens, but initial attempts seem promising
    Last edited by EndeavourDK; March 9th, 2019 at 17:56.
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  11. #280
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    Re: Before & After ✨

    I am in awe of you guys and those resurrections. There are some interesting watches out there. Thank you!
    EndeavourDK likes this.

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