Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2 - Page 44
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Thread: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

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  1. #431
    Member schnurrp's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodkopf View Post
    Dear Schnurrp, thank you for your reply. More or less you confirmed my worries, about the case I am 99% sure. Especially with "dial looks too good to be true" you are right. Even-though I consider myself as a little advanced in vintage watch world, I still sometimes surprise myself, on what I am able to bet.

    Was it expensive? Well, considering the price of this one, it wasn't...but considering it's lack of authenticity, it wasn't cheap... :)

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Rare-...AAAOSw2gxYqEVB
    Yes, it's hard to believe that an authentic dial/movement in that condition would be removed from its original case and put in a modern one. I believe there was a pocket watch version and maybe that's where it came from but I would expect an authentic pocket watch version would be more valuable than a made up wristwatch version.

    That is a beauty that fialkin77 is "representing" and if I had the disposable income to buy soviet watches in that price range that might be at the top of my list.

  2. #432
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    would like a 2nd (3rd, 4th, 5th etc welcome too) opinion on this... posted this in the 'what did you buy today thread': rather convinced the dial's restored (esp considering the seller's rep) and the crown's replaced, but the movement is sound... what do y'all think?

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  3. #433
    Member schnurrp's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    The one pictured on the left from comrade Mroatman's collection has been discussed before and is believed to be authentic. You can see the differences: "Pobeda" different font, etc., hands different, no "Second Moscow" logo, place of manufacture in different location, second hand printed without ring.

    In my opinion yours has a dial that was cleaned of all marks, stains, and in the process printing, and re-printed.

    It's possible that one just like yours will surface and that would help establish it as authentic. In the meantime I am suspicious of its authenticity.

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    Last edited by schnurrp; November 1st, 2017 at 15:01.

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  5. #434
    Member AGAPITO's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    Thank you very much comrade Neruda. I´ll try again.

    My question is about two 2409 Vostok watches . I think one of them would be manufactured in 1975 and the second one already in 1990 or similar time. The two watches do not seem to me rare specimens, but rather normal watches manufactured at different times in the Chistopol factory. Both apparently seem correct.

    Maybe the doubt is the back cover. I had seen some vostok watch with that drawing on the dial, but not on the back cover.

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    I can´t open the watch case now, but I have seen the movement inside before, and it is a 2409A, similar to this internet image. Do you think the watch is correct?

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    As for the second watch, it is a Vostok Amphibia 2409A-SU, which I would attribute to a later time (when I saw the 2409A-SU I always think about Gorbachev era, although this is not true). I think it's pretty well preserved.

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    Do you think it would be legit? Thank you in advance.

  6. #435
    Member Dub Rubb's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    First off, thank you guys for all of the help recently and in the future. I truly appreciate it.
    Now on to the next round of watches I am considering. I have learned a lot from you all about Vostoks, but am now stepping into other branches of the Russian watch world.

    What do you guys think of these 3? Unfortunately no movement pictures from sellers, but I am very interested in the engraved poljot. Thanks in advance comrades!Name:  il_fullxfull.1179541647_1tq5.jpg
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  7. #436
    Member Neruda's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    Flenr - There are currently at least three examples of the dial of Mroatman's version with the Pobeda logo in script on ebay. Two have some signs of age, the other is very clean - perhaps this is suspicious, or perhaps it indicates these dials can be successfully cleaned?
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    All three have identical hour and minute hands, perhaps indicating (dare I say it) that Mroatman's are wrong. All movements have the Second Moscow Watch Factory logo which I believe was introduced in 1958. All dials are marked "made in USSR" below 6 o'clock.

    Also on ebay are three watches with the curved Pobeda logo on the dial - but there are significant differences. These dials are not the same as Flenr's, but possibly sufficiently similar. The first significant detail to note is that beneath 6 o'clock instead of "made in USSR" is abbreviated identification of the watch factory. There is no jewel number on the dial.
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    Note also the earlier logo on the movement, and the date (4th quarter 1956).
    The other two examples of the curved Pobeda logo watches sadly don't have very clear photos:
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    My conclusion is that the curved Pobeda dials are earlier, and the Pobeda script dials are later - pre and post 1958 perhaps. So Flenr's example has two possibilities - either, as Schurrp very credibly speculates, it is an incorrectly refurbished dial - or just possibly it is a "transition" dial with elements of both.
    Last edited by Neruda; November 2nd, 2017 at 03:07.
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  8. #437
    Member Neruda's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    Agapito - I can't comment on the dial on your first watch, but the movement seems to correspond to c.1975. Up until about 1972 earlier movements have stars on the ratchet wheel. Movements from the late 1970s have the B in a circle logo moved to under the balance. There is also a difference to the screw retaining the crown wheel.
    This 2409A movement comes from a Vostok celebrating the 1980 Moscow Olympics, perhaps made in advance in late 1979, so you can see the evolution:
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    The movement on your second watch probably dates to c.1982-1985. The SU stamp seems to have been introduced on Vostoks in about 1980 and dropped about 1985, while the bevelled edge to the movement (as seen above) was discontinued about 1982. The dial is marked "antimagnetic" and I think these usually had a non-ferrous shield beneath the caseback - perhaps this is missing?
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  9. #438
    Member mroatman's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Spannerman View Post
    Thanks for your help! What makes you say the hands are replaced? The only slight difference I can see is on the tail of the second hand. Any help is appreciated, first time dipping my toe into vintage.
    The hour and minute hands are a different shape. It may be easier to see once the watch arrives. The proper hands have a very slight, even growth/taper to the tip. The ones on your watch have the more traditional Pobeda hands -- straight most of the way, then a quick taper at the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by XsiOn View Post
    Hi Friends,
    what do you think of this Precision? I never saw this hands in combination with this dial. They look more like Volna to me. And dial is also quite new for the age....?
    Thanks, Peter
    The dial is a modern reproduction. The movement and hands come from a Volna. Pass.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodkopf View Post
    What do you think about dial, hands and movement? Does it have any value or should I start to fight with seller, as it was written "sold as on pictures", but also "guaranteed all original as well". :) Looking forward to your opinion. Thanks!
    Start a fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neruda View Post
    Flenr - There are currently at least three examples of the dial of Mroatman's version with the Pobeda logo in script on ebay. Two have some signs of age, the other is very clean - perhaps this is suspicious, or perhaps it indicates these dials can be successfully cleaned?
    All three have identical hour and minute hands, perhaps indicating (dare I say it) that Mroatman's are wrong.
    Yes, if we are to trust the 1960 catalog, mine are likely replaced.


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  10. #439
    Member AGAPITO's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Neruda View Post
    Agapito - I can't comment on the dial on your first watch, but the movement seems to correspond to c.1975. Up until about 1972 earlier movements have stars on the ratchet wheel. Movements from the late 1970s have the B in a circle logo moved to under the balance. There is also a difference to the screw retaining the crown wheel.
    This 2409A movement comes from a Vostok celebrating the 1980 Moscow Olympics, perhaps made in advance in late 1979, so you can see the evolution:
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    The movement on your second watch probably dates to c.1982-1985. The SU stamp seems to have been introduced on Vostoks in about 1980 and dropped about 1985, while the bevelled edge to the movement (as seen above) was discontinued about 1982. The dial is marked "antimagnetic" and I think these usually had a non-ferrous shield beneath the caseback - perhaps this is missing?
    I have taken the second watch to a watchmaker and I have been able to open the watch case.

    As you say, the Amphibia has that antimagnetic shield.

    It´s a good new. I think both watches would be correct.

  11. #440
    Member kalvinoz's Avatar
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    Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

    Hello everyone - seeking your expert opinion on this Sturmanskie 17j. I've been looking for a piece like that in not a terrible state, but have some doubts about this one:
    - the hour and minute hand are either new or have been relumed (is it possible to tell the difference?)
    - the case looks a bit too clean/polished compared with the condition of the dial
    - most worryingly, the Geneva stripes appear to not be present on all plates

    On the bright side:
    - the crown looks the right shape
    - the dial shows age (faded red, greenish edges, faded loom)

    Finally, what's the going-rate for a watch in this condition (assuming it's mostly legit)?

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    elsoldemayo likes this.

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