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Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2

244K views 3K replies 196 participants last post by  EndeavourDK 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
(This is the continuation from an earlier thread : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-894887.html
Please post here your questions to the forum community, when you suspect something wrong on a watch or just want to be sure. You will surely receive a quick answer from the many experts in different technical fields and different brands.

Do not post in the "
Franken of the week" thread that is a showcase reserved for undisputably frankened timepieces.
- the moderator)


I know Slava made quite a few versions of this style watch. But what do you think of this one?

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#377 ·
Sansoni7 - I'm not 100% certain, but I think NOT. At least, I see problems with it.

Poljot started this line in the early 1990s, but by 2000 the company was in grave financial difficulties. Around 2005 Poljot sold most of their equipment. Ex-employees formed several companies to continue making and selling Poljots, one such operation was Volmax which continued in Russia until about 2010 before relocating to Switzerland. Both Poljot and Volmax produced Aviator watches, so if genuine which made yours.

I believe this is a genuine Poljot era Aviator:
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More photos of this watch at Poljot Aviator On the dial, note the Poljot logo under 12 o'clock and the Aviator brand above 6 o'clock. Note also "Russia" under 12 o'clock. Compare the hands and the lume.

The wings logo on your example does appear on the later Volmax Aviators - but in this case, why the Poljot instruction manual? Two other important details are suspect. The movement is marked SU, suggesting it was made during the Soviet Union period or shortly afterwards (Poljot 3133 movements continued to be marked SU up to about 1995). So, if this is a post-Poljot Aviator made by Volmax, the movement seems highly improbable - for me this is the deal-breaker. The exhibition caseback is certainly not original - nothing definitive here though as these can often be replaced. Blue second hands were indeed used by Poljot around the 2000 period on some Aviator models, but also appear on many copies.

Finally compare your watch to Aviator manual winding military style wrist watch Poljot cal. 2614.2H | eBay The seller is being reasonably honest in dating the year of production to approx 2011 - but also giving the game away. Poljot were out of the running by 2005 and Volmax were by then largely if not completely based in Switzerland. It comes with the same instruction booklet which clearly cannot be correct at this date. Coincidentally this seller is from the Ukraine, but offering the watch in Poland.
 
#397 · (Edited)
This "Vostok Komandirskie Gagarin" looks legit to me, but I'd sure appreciate if someone could tell me for sure.
This is an interesting one.

Straight up I can tell you that the hands are modern replacements.

Now the dial is a little confusing. My gut feeling is that it is a modern reproduction, the reason I give is that the helmet lacks a little detail and overall the black lines in the graphic appear a little too heavy in their thickness and application. The other detail is that the lume dots appear too small and the colour is not quite right. At best it might have been re-lumed, as the bezel dot looks "off".

I'm not sure if this dial was sold in the Vostok Type 320 Amphibian case, I've seen it more often in the Vostok Type 020 Amphibian case.

Overall, as I said earlier, my gut feeling is that it's a mish-mash of old and modern reproduction parts.

Hopefully others will chime in with their take.

Edit. I just had a look at what other watches the seller has available and I see that they have many, many fantasy watches with "fake" dials, so it strengthens my feeling that the dial is a reproduction.
 
#403 ·
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Any thoughts on this supposedly Raketa movement? Bevelled balance bridge seems out with the rest, but I'm wondering about the marking. Is this a 2609HA, a variant, or a fake? Thanks.
A fake what? 2609.NP ? No idea what that means, but I can confidently say that only Raketa have ever made a movement that looks like this. Can't say if any parts have been changed. What does it look like from the other side? Should be 12 hour time, sweep second hand and no calendar functions.
 
#401 ·
That is a so-called "precision" version of the 2609.HA movement, 2609.ПР. I've never heard a convincing reason for why it is more precise, but I believe it has something to do with the metal used in the balance hair spring. However, that one's had its balance replaced so I guess it's a moot point. Several Raketa models had the ПР movement standard. I believe the one best known is the Copernicus.

Here are a bunch from an '85 catalog:

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#406 ·
Just bought this fairly scratched up Pobeda, the crown looks too new and in good condition to be original, what about the rest? How much would you say is a fair price? Thanks in advance! View attachment 12610045 View attachment 12610047 View attachment 12610049

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Classic First Moscow Pobeda with what looks like the original crystal and movement. Going by the size of the movement in the case, pretty good overall size for an old Pobeda. Crown looks new but not too far off in shape, a little big.
 
#415 ·
I believe there are only a couple dials that would be authentic with that old movement and that's not one of them. One or the other does not belong. Also there is a reproduction of that dial out. I would be suspicious of that and interested only at a low price for parts without a lot more investigation.
 
#417 · (Edited)
I suspect that this dial belonged to a different model Komandirskie with a type 34 case, and was inserted into the type 29 case you have shown. The original dial in the type 29 looked very similar.

I have supplied scans of the 1990 Tento Vostok catalog so you can see what I mean. The case you have shown should have the Red Star dial.

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#419 ·
The links don't work for me - but you led me in the rights direction (I have the catalogues on my Google Drive :) ) I guess you meant the 291223 and 341226?

Thanks a lot for your help - you saved me a few $ :) :)

Too bad though, as finally there was a Komandirskie that I really liked the look of :)
Yeah links/attachments have been screwy for the past week, but you hit the nail on the head as those are the correct model numbers I was trying to post.

Sometimes if the price is low enough it's fine to purchase watches that bring a smile to your dial regardless of authenticity :)
 
#425 ·
If possible, I want to ask you about the authenticity of two 2409 Vostok watches . I think one of them would be manufactured in 1975 and the second one already in 1990 or similar time. Apparently it seem correct.

For me maybe the question is curiously the back cover. I had seen some vostok watches with that drawing on the dial, but not on the back cover.

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I can´t open the watch case now, but I have seen that it has a 2409A movement, similar to this internet image. Do you think the watch is correct?

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As for the second watch, it is a Vostok Amphibia 2409A-SU, which I would attribute to a later time. I think it's pretty well preserved.

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Do you think it would be legit? Thank you in advance.
 
#426 ·
Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono

Hi Guys, I would appreciate your opinion on following watch. I bought it in typical online auction rush, then later I realized, that it is not original, case is obviously from different type and age. What do you think about dial, hands and movement? Does it have any value or should I start to fight with seller, as it was written "sold as on pictures", but also "guaranteed all original as well". :) Looking forward to your opinion. Thanks!
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#428 ·
Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Kirova Chrono

Hi Guys, I would appreciate your opinion on following watch. I bought it in typical online auction rush, then later I realized, that it is not original, case is obviously from different type and age. What do you think about dial, hands and movement? Does it have any value or should I start to fight with seller, as it was written "sold as on pictures", but also "guaranteed all original as well". :) Looking forward to your opinion. Thanks!
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I have seen these before but they are pretty rare and I am not qualified to authenticate one. I did make a quick trip to the 'net and this was the first article I saw that seemed to have some usefull information: 1ГЧЗ/Valjoux 61 One-Button Chronograph. There could be more but I don't have time to do any more research. I found what I found searching: First Moscow one-button chrono watch"

I believe the case is a "modern" replacement, the dial looks too good to be true so may have been re-painted, hands re-lumed and the second hand may have been replaced. The movement looks very similar to the other example I looked at.

Hopefully we'll be getting some more feedback from others.

Was it expensive?
 
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