Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie
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  1. #1
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    Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    Hi there,

    just got this great looking Sturmanskie on eBay, looks genuine to me but what am I missing ? Maybe the second hand is a bit shorter tan it ought to ?

    let me know !

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  2. #2
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    Not bad. The dial and 2 hands are great. The Seconds had is a bit shorter (probably from Sportivnie). But unfortunately the mechanism is not from the Shturmanskie. It is most likely Sportivnie. Note the push down button to extract the clown. Must be a screw.
    Finding mechanism is easy. Great dial and hands is what counts. I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Odessa200; 2 Weeks Ago at 21:14.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    Looks fine to me. The seconds hand may be too short, but since it appears correct in all other respects, I'd believe that the tip just broke off.

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  5. #4
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    Re: Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    Quote Originally Posted by Odessa200 View Post
    Not bad. The dial and 2 hands are great. The Seconds had is a bit shorter (probably from Sportivnie). But unfortunately the mechanism is not from the Shturmanskie. It is most likely Sportivnie. Not the push down button to extract the clown. Must be a screw.
    Finding mechanism is easy. Great dial and hands is what counts. I hope this helps.
    I see no problem with the movement. Mine is a stem-release button:

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  6. #5
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    Re: Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    I should add that for the 17-jewel version, unlike the 15-jewel version, there likely is absolutely no difference between the Sturmanskie and Sportivne:

    Quote Originally Posted by mroatman View Post
    I had wondered about that. Of course, I have read your excellent article on the matter, but I cannot find where you sourced the information about the date stamp? I read through your references and didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

    I can say that one of the most accomplished Soviet collectors I know about, kinead aka [k], has also written a nice article on the Sturmanskie "brand": Штурманские: A Milestone in Russian Horology - BDWF Forum Index Page. There, he shows his own 17-jewel example which includes the date stamp. Kinead's knowledge is vast, and he is typically extremely unforgiving about minor details on his pieces, so I tend to believe his example is authentic. But I suppose everyone makes mistakes.

    In regard to this being a Sportivnie movement instead, well, that's surely a possibility. I have about 20 Sportivnie examples, and they seem to vary andomly between carrying the date stamp and having a blank barrel bridge. This is actually what I had alluded to in my original post: "This is the same movement found in the far-more-common Sportivnie. I can find no functional or aesthetic differences between the Sturmanskie and Sportivnie movements." If these are actually the exact same movement, I find it hard to believe 1MWF would set up an entirely separate manufacturing line solely to supply Sturmanskies with no date, or make specific efforts to select only those movements without date marking for the Sturmanskie. At least, I struggle to understand the motivation there.

    Of course, there might be some minor differences between Sturmanskie and Sportivnie movements, which would then ruin my theory. But I can't find any.

  7. #6
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    Re: Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    One more post, Comrade Straight_time has identified two different versions of the 17-jewel movement, the latter of which is a button-release stem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight_time View Post
    I LOVE these research jobs... well done, Comrade.




    Not an expert at all on Shturmanskies, but I did some research on various movements here and there, and hopefully I can bring a little contribution to the discussion.


    I also wondered where did the information of 17j not having a datestamp come from first, since the source quoted by Comrade slls in his guide is the article written by "K", where the watch shown does have a datestamp -a clarification would be needed here.

    Anyway, I presume that part of the confusion (which may also have affected your own research) could be due because you composed your "study group" taking into account ALL the available 17j Sportivnies, while a BIG selection should be made, IMHO, to discard first all those having a stem release button instead of a stem release screw.
    Opposite to what Comrade Geoff wrote in his thread when introducing his 17j Shturmanskie (BTW not received in that form, if I get it right), these shout be late models, not early ones.

    Once the group had been screamed, analizing how many movements have a datestamp and how many don't would have more sense and, I bet, would depict a different ratio.



    My best guess about the 17j movements' evolution (in no way I could tell whether they were used on Shturmanskies only, on Sportivnies only, or on both):



    1. Early version - Stem release screw, datestamp (K's watch from this thread, 2009)







    2. Transitional version - Stem release screw, no datestamp (Geoff Adams' watch from this thread, 2014)







    3. Late version - Stem release button, no datestamp (Strela's watch from this thread, 2009)






    Please also notice that on the first two examples the drum wheel is marked ГС1МЧЗ, while on the last one there's simply 1МЧЗ -another feature that helps determining the age of that factory's movements.

  8. #7
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    I agree that there is no functional difference between them. Maybe aside for a bit more rigorous tech control for the military Shturmanskie (that frankly after so many years has no impact as you can find better working Sportivnie). Maybe earlier versions had the screw. Mine seems to be an earlier version with ГС1МЧЗ on the barrel. This forum had the differences analyzed. See attached. I have not personally saw with the push down release. Maybe it is genuine.
    Attached Images Attached Images

    Last edited by Odessa200; 2 Weeks Ago at 21:34.
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  9. #8
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    Our threads keep crossing with bpmurray. 🙂. Anyway, I think the main selling point for this watch is the exterior. And the mentioned specimen is quite nice. If the price is right for you, take it 🙂
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  10. #9
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    Re: Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    that's also what I think, maybe bad servicing

  11. #10
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    Re: Real Or Fake 17J Sturmanskie

    are you talking about the button on the right hand side of the serial number ? cant see what you refer to otherwise please elaborate

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