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  1. #111
    Member miquel99's Avatar
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    Re: Type 1 kirovskie

    The movement of your first watch its totally legit and case too(so nice case) sure you can find a legit dial. About the watch of the SWF seem legit too(movement sure) the dial its a little bit different than the Dashiel,s watch. Sometimes its really hard to say only watching a picture, but seem ok
    garethr likes this.
    Visit my photo album on my profile

  2. #112
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    Re: Type 1 kirovskie

    Here's a first that I've seen: a star-and-pallet fork Type 1 with a dial-stamped serial number that does NOT start with Д:

    Name:  ZT1.jpg
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Size:  4.63 MB

  3. #113
    Member LFCJari37's Avatar
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    Re: Type 1 kirovskie

    Well I have finally got my 1st one, lovely 1944 model. Thanks for the help from you guys to track a good one down!Name:  IMG_1835.JPG
Views: 91
Size:  1.26 MB
    EndeavourDK likes this.
    Kemmner Military
    WWII 1944 Kirovskie K-43 Type 1
    Восток Амфибия

    Sinn U1

    Maranez Rawai 45 Steel
    Citizen Navihawk AT
    Hamilton X-Wind
    Seiko Orange Monster


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  5. #114
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight_time View Post
    This is how the paragraph reads now, please find below my suggested corrections:

    The 2nd MWF started fully producing Type-1 watches in 1936. Before 1936 the 2nd MWF produced Type-1 watches using parts made in the 1st SWF (including their movement stamp).

    In the 4th quarter 1941, most of the equipment of the 2nd MWF was moved to Chistopol where they produced Type-1 watches for approximately a year. Those watches have no logo, nor a year stamp.

    In 1942 the equipment was send back to Moscow to restart the factory again. First as 2nd WF Chistopol and since July 1943 till 1945 as factory 538. In 1945 Type-1 equipment went back to Chistopol again.

    During the war years the factory was known as factory 853.



    1) "The 2nd MWF started fully producing Type-1 watches in 1936."

    First of all, if the entire guide is dedicated to *KIROVA TYPE-1* watches, it shouldn't include other factories' productions, as the term is extremely specific.

    I would like to bring the attention on the fact that the 1940 catalog, the earliest currently known showing 2ChZ watches, does *not* refer to them as "Type-1", nor does any such logo appear on this factory's movements (unlike 1GChZ-made ones). According to it, their official designation is "КЧ" (KCh).

    Chistopol Factory movements neither had that mark/designation (they later used "ChK-6" instead).

    As far as Zlatoust Factory is concerned, only early movements (until 1949 circa) had the "Type-1" marking -but this makes perfect sense, since equipments came from 1GChZ.
    It was later replaced by "ChK-6" (on bridges) first, and "15-I" (in catalogs) towards the end of production.

    Altough I agree that Type-1/Kirowskie are names widely recognized and accepted(*), I think that a guide aiming to be taken as a reference should at least have a footnote specifying these differences.

    (*) I've noticed that on some Russian forums, for better clarification the name "Kirowskie" is also often accompanied by "1GChZ" or "1MChZ", depending on whether they are referring to the 43mm. Hampden-derived movement or the wristwatch from the late Fifties, respectively.




    2) "The 2nd MWF"

    Wherever the text mentions "2ndMWF" there is a mistake, as the "M" for "Moscow" wasn't part of the official designation until after WWII.






    3) "In the 4th quarter 1941, most of the equipment of the 2nd MWF was moved to Chistopol where they produced Type-1 watches for approximately a year."

    Actually, production in Chistopol didn't start before Spring 1942 with the factory becoming fully operational likely towards June.
    But where does the assumption that their production only lasted one year come from? Simply check the history page on the official Vostok Watch Factory website to see their timeline (and, should that not be enough, serial numbers on unmarked/undated Chistopol movements far exceed the maximum yearly production technically possible).




    4) "In 1942 the equipment was send back to Moscow to restart the factory again. First as 2nd WF Chistopol (...)"

    Firstly, only part of the equipment is reported to have been sent back; secondly, "2nd WF Chistopol" ...in Moscow [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.watchuseek.com/images/icons/confused.gif[/IMG] ??




    5) "(...) and since July 1943 till 1945 as factory 538."

    While 538 is clearly just a typo for 853, the year is wrong -the last "53" movement I currently have documention of, has a datestamp "1946-1".




    6) "In 1945 Type-1 equipment went back to Chistopol again".

    Undocumented and, in all probability, wrong (see points 4-5 above).




    7) "Most 2ndSWF dials have no logo" (legend under the photo of a 2ChZ marked dial).

    The same is said about 1GChZ, and could be equally wrong -but it's not relevant here; this could be, at its best, a theory, contradicted by all currently available catalog evidences (1932 and 1934 for 1GChZ alone; 1940 for both 1GChZ and 2ChZ) which only show images of *branded* watches; also, as a matter of fact, such watches are far from rare and can be found (relatively...) quite easily.
    Before stating this as a "fact" it would therefore be necessary to bring more evidences in support; but at the moment it looks like the practice might had been exactly the opposite, with official productions from both factories having marked dials(*) (**).

    (*) Exceptions: pre-war and war-years watches *of any factory* with 1-to-24 indexes, believed to be for Military use (very few have a logo, actually);

    (**) Possible explanation why so many unmarked dials can be seen around: spin-off factories were not allowed to have their own logos during war years (first markings on movements known to me at the moment date back to 1947 for both Chistopol and Zlatoust); all of their early production is "anonymous", and recognizable only analyzing the movements' specific features.




    8)

    The photogallery of movement logos is missing the first style, to be found exclusively on the 1936 very very early production run of a few hundreds pieces with gilded bridges.


    Attachment 12478715
    Sorry for reviving this old thread. Can you guys tell me a bit more of the watches with the gilded mechanism? Do you have a complete movement photo? Dial? What is the story? Meaning: why gilded? Thanks!

  6. #115
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    Re: Type 1 kirovskie

    Comrade, if anybody should be sorry here, that's me... didn't read your post until now.

    Unfortunately, nothing more to add about story/background.
    I can at least post some pictures of the complete watch I had saved in my archives:


    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato dial.jpg
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    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato.jpg
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    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato part 1.jpg
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    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato part 2.jpg
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    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato part 3.jpg
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    As far as I can recall, this example sold for a price in the $500-700 range.
    Never seen another one since, but from comments I've randomly read on some Russian forums, the few survivors must be extremely rare indeed.

  7. #116
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight_time View Post
    Comrade, if anybody should be sorry here, that's me... didn't read your post until now.

    Unfortunately, nothing more to add about story/background.
    I can at least post some pictures of the complete watch I had saved in my archives:


    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato dial.jpg
Views: 35
Size:  193.5 KB


    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato.jpg
Views: 36
Size:  387.8 KB


    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato part 1.jpg
Views: 34
Size:  312.5 KB


    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato part 2.jpg
Views: 35
Size:  279.5 KB


    Name:  2 MChZ 1936 mov dorato part 3.jpg
Views: 35
Size:  247.0 KB


    As far as I can recall, this example sold for a price in the $500-700 range.
    Never seen another one since, but from comments I've randomly read on some Russian forums, the few survivors must be extremely rare indeed.
    Wow. This is cool. Lets search for a few more 🙂. Thanks for posting

  8. #117
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    For all of the people who love puzzles... take a look at this one. I could not figure this out. It looks like the gilding, even if this is gold and not a paint, was done much later. I could not identify the stamp. The year is 1937. It has ‘Не Сорт’ which is the movements that were not tested or sorted for quality.... the dial is nice. The movement works fine. Keeps time. What is your take on what was this originally and what this is now? 🙂
    Attached Images Attached Images




  9. #118
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    Re: Type 1 kirovskie

    I have no idea of what it is (probably some kind of galvanic treatment, rather than a paint) but IMHO the gilding can't be factory original for sure; the case looks like it's been rechromed, and the dial seems to be one of those high quality modern reprints on original blanks. I have some doubts that sword shaped hands were already in use in 1937, so by gut feeling I'd tend to believe it's a restoration meant to be more eye-appealing than faithful.

    About the stamp, no mistery... the factory logo was also a sort of quality mark, so watches which were below standard (or most likely, according to some theories, those which were refurbished by an artel) very often had it erased. The circle, which also has "HE COPT" inside, is nothing else than the result of a milling where there was the 1GChZ diamond logo.

  10. #119
    Member Odessa200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight_time View Post
    I have no idea of what it is (probably some kind of galvanic treatment, rather than a paint) but IMHO the gilding can't be factory original for sure; the case looks like it's been rechromed, and the dial seems to be one of those high quality modern reprints on original blanks. I have some doubts that sword shaped hands were already in use in 1937, so by gut feeling I'd tend to believe it's a restoration meant to be more eye-appealing than faithful.

    About the stamp, no mistery... the factory logo was also a sort of quality mark, so watches which were below standard (or most likely, according to some theories, those which were refurbished by an artel) very often had it erased. The circle, which also has "HE COPT" inside, is nothing else than the result of a milling where there was the 1GChZ diamond logo.
    After searching and searching I was able to find similar watches (stamps, not the gilding) and the stamp has ЮТ НЕСОРТ. Несорт is basically bad watches. One theory about ЮТ is that it stands for Юный Техник that translates as Young Technician. In USSR we has this organization for teenagers to train them for the future work on the factories and basically teach them some skills. The theory is that some low quality movement were given to this organization to practice on and build watches. Possible as far as I can see. These kids re-stamped the movements. As far as ‘gilding’: agree with you. Some kind of galvanizing. I did not pay that much for this and the movement works fantastic. Better that any other type 1 I have. A few secs per day error with nice amplitude. So I am keeping it. Will be mine ‘beater’ when I want to wear type 1. 🙂.

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