14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

Thread: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

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  1. #1

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    14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    I thought I would post a picture of my pocket watch and see if anyone can tell me anything about it. I know it's a hunter case, but I'm not sure if it's considered a "box" hunter case. I believe the movement is size 16. The serial number on the movement is 5084306. 17 jewels adjusted. The name American Waltham Watch Co is on the movement. The words "safety pinion" also appear on the movement. Dust cover inscription reads "Presented by Mary Cohn for M.C. 1-25-1900". The number 26130 appears under the 14k stamp on the inside of the back cover and the same number appears on the inside of the dust cover below another 14k mark that has a single stem with four flower buds above it. Looks like it has some tiny diamonds in the hands.
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  2. #2

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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    Start:1/1/1891End:12/31/1891 First:5084001 Last:5085000 Model:[COLOR=*0000ff]1883[/COLOR]Name:No. 15 Material:A Grade:No. 15, NLSize:18Size:18 Plate:FPPlate:SW Jewelling:15Jewels:15 Balance:ExBal:Pat. Reg. - Breg. HS Style:HC
    Style:
    Htg
    Comment:Breg LS Unadj Htg a few made PSB + *85 17 jewel Source:DH
    Date:
    12/4/2002

    I found the above information based on the serial number, which seems to indicate that it's a size 18. But the above information seems incorrect inasmuch as mine is 17 jewels and does not reference P.S. Bartlett.

  3. #3
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    Definitely 18S and 17 jewels made 1891. It isn't a P S Bartlett but it might be a *85 model. A few were made in both categories, as I read the notes.
    Shugart does list a generic AWWCo. 17J model 1883 in a hunter case configuration.

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  5. #4

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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray MacDonald View Post
    Definitely 18S and 17 jewels made 1891. It isn't a P S Bartlett but it might be a *85 model. A few were made in both categories, as I read the notes.
    Shugart does list a generic AWWCo. 17J model 1883 in a hunter case configuration.
    Thank you for the clarification. I didn't read the notes that way. Not sure how a *85 model differs from a 1883. In any event can you tell whether or not my watch is considered a "box" hunter? Also, can anyone tell me what the movement is made of? It looks like gold but given gold's softness I would be surprised if that's the case. Also, the watch was appraised in 1998. Have these watches appreciated since that time?

  6. #5
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    Probably an 85 movement was a slight modification to the 1883 made in 1885. These records are more than 100 years old so it's anyone's guess.
    Movements are usually made of gilded brass or nickel.
    The case looks like it has box hinges.
    We don't do valuations here. Read our sticky notes for reasons why. However I doubt that valuations have changed that much in 10 years.
    Last edited by Ray MacDonald; June 10th, 2008 at 01:28.

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  7. #6

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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray MacDonald View Post
    Probably an 85 movement was a slight modification to the 1883 made in 1885. These records are more than 100 years old so it's anyone's guess.
    Movements are usually made of gilded brass or nickel.
    The case looks like it has box hinges.
    We don't do valuations here. Read out sticky notes for reasons why. However I doubt that valuations have changed that much in 10 years.
    Thank you for your assistance. By using "gilded" in my search request I was able to find the following information posted on Barry S Goldberg's Pocket Watch website. (Isn't the Internet amazing!) Note the description with regard to the No. 85 grade. I suspect that describes the movement in my watch, although mine has damascening which isn't mentioned in the description (but is in some other non-1883 models). Perhaps you or someone else with more experience or expertise could confirm? I appreciate the avoidance of valuations. Although I would love to have one, I already recognized the resistance. Accordingly my inquiry was limited to relative appreciation, which you suggest isn't much. That being the case I suspect if I compare the price of gold at the time of my appraisal to the price of gold today, the percentage increase or decrease might fairly approximate the change. As a general matter I think these watches are undervalued. The craftmanship and artistry are amazing. Too bad more isn't known of the case makers. I've seen other watches with a stag motif, but I've yet to see one as well executed as mine. The detail is exceptional. I've often wondered who produced it and how many were made.

    Model *1883
    Crescent Street"Fine Nickel Movement; 15-21 Ruby Jewels in Gold Settings; Patent Regulator; Compensation Balance, adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism and Position; Patent Breguet Hairspring, Hardened and Tempered in Form; Fine Glass Enamel Double Sunk Dial; the finest Full Plate Movement in the world."

    Santa Fe Route17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and position

    Appleton, Tracy & Co."Nickel Movement; 15-17 Ruby Jewels in Gold Settings; Patent Regulator; Compensation Balance, adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism and Position; Patent Breguet Hairspring, Hardened and Tempered in Form; Double Sunk Dial."

    No. 4517 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and positionRiverside15-17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and position

    No. 35"Nickel Movement; 15 Ruby Jewels in Gold Settings; Patent Regulator; Compensation Balance, adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism and Position; Patent Breguet Hairspring, Hardened and Tempered in Form; Double Sunk Dial."

    P.S. Bartlett"Nickel; 11-17 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, patent micrometric regulator; patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

    Wm. Ellery11-17 jewels, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature

    No. 85"Gilded; 17 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, compensation balance, adjusted to temperature, patent micrometric regulator; patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

    No. 825"Nickel; 17 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form, highly finished oval regulator, polished and gilded index plate."

    No. 820"Nickel; 15 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, meantime screws, patent micrometric regulator, polished and gilded index plate, patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

    No. 81"Gilded; 15 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, patent Breguet hairspring, hardened and tempered in form."

    No. 18"Nickel; 7 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, highly finished oval regulator, polished and gilded index plate, patent Breguet hairspring hardened and tempered in form."

    No. 1"Gilded; 7 jewels, settings, exposed pallets, cut expansion balance, highly finished oval regulator, polished and gilded index plate, patent Breguet hairspring hardened and tempered in form."

  8. #7
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    One can always assess the value of any gold cased watch by its scrap value, and on that basis there would be some appreciation I suppose. Our reluctance to give valuations is based upon the impossibility of assessing the watch's running condition through photos posted on the Internet.
    In the final analysis any watch sells for what a buyer is willing to pay. With the exception of the railroad grade models, these antique American pieces sell at relatively attractive prices. In my view that is good news for any one who wants to start a collection. Remember that for the vast majority of modern watch enthusiasts these watches are of little practical use or fashion interest. Hence the low prices they sell for.
    Getting back to your watch I believe model No. 85 describes it best of all the Walthams in its class. You are very fortunate to have such detailed identification which is frankly only possible because of the detailed records preserved by the American makers a century ago. Owners of most Swiss made and English made watches from the 1890s have no where near the resources at their disposal.
    Case detective work is a subject in its own right and I don't claim to be an expert in that area. My ancestors were mostly working stiffs who bought their watches in simple open face cases. That is the type of watch case I prefer.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

  9. #8

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    Re: 14k multi-color Waltham pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray MacDonald View Post
    One can always assess the value of any gold cased watch by its scrap value, and on that basis there would be some appreciation I suppose. Our reluctance to give valuations is based upon the impossibility of assessing the watch's running condition through photos posted on the Internet.
    In the final analysis any watch sells for what a buyer is willing to pay. With the exception of the railroad grade models, these antique American pieces sell at relatively attractive prices. In my view that is good news for any one who wants to start a collection. Remember that for the vast majority of modern watch enthusiasts these watches are of little practical use or fashion interest. Hence the low prices they sell for.
    Getting back to your watch I believe model No. 85 describes it best of all the Walthams in its class. You are very fortunate to have such detailed identification which is frankly only possible because of the detailed records preserved by the American makers a century ago. Owners of most Swiss made and English made watches from the 1890s have no where near the resources at their disposal.
    Case detective work is a subject in its own right and I don't claim to be an expert in that area. My ancestors were mostly working stiffs who bought their watches in simple open face cases. That is the type of watch case I prefer.
    Thank you for all of your assistance.

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