1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.
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  1. #1
    Member Apollonaught's Avatar
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    1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Hi,

    I am seeking information on an early Trench style watch,I have been lucky to be the recipient of forum member Scott (aka SDASurrey`s) kind generosity,and he has gifted me this watch out of good will.(THANKS MATE).

    The watch is pre WW1,it has a base metal case with snap on bezel and case back.The roman numeral dial has a red 12 and is enamel,just one small hairline near 11 o`clock.It is pin set and has a cylinder escapement movement with no jewels.The movement has no markings other than swiss made,the letter "M",and a brevet stamp under the balance.

    My questions are.............

    A)who is "M" the movement maker?
    B)Given the Red 12,and the age,when would this likely have been made?
    C)Given the size,40-45mm would this have been a pilots watch?EDIT:37mm-40mm
    D)If it`s not "M" stamped on the movement,could it be "W"

    Any thoughts/information welcome.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    P.s:There are no markings to inside case back.
    Last edited by Apollonaught; June 11th, 2015 at 07:29. Reason: added info/correction of size
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  2. #2
    Member Emre's Avatar
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    I am not aware of a makers mark with the letter 'M' and couldn't find anything also in mikrolisk which I am sure you also checked. I don't think it's a letter 'W', the arms are too narrow and the font character is designed as 'M'. Are there no marks on the inner case-back? The case looks like gunmetal, is it?

    Not sure though if it was manufactured as a wrist watch with that size. It may have been re-cased to meet the demand of the wristwatches,especially at 40mm diameter it's something we see only around WW II.But again there are so many things we don't know yet, so everything is possible. Red and/or blue 12 o'clock mark was something at the edge of the changes due to the crown position change. Most reasonable PWs for public had the crown at 12 o'clock,so the brain imaging of conceiving the time was set accordingly.When the wrist watches started having the crown at 3 o'clock position, they came up with this red and blue 12 to draw more attention on the dial lay-out and crown positioning so that time could be read at a glance.

    The brevet cross might be the key,are there no digits around that cross? If you have the tools,seeing the dial side of the movement would be useful.

    Overall it looks like a beautiful watch and wearable,I am sure it ticks joyful loud.

  3. #3
    Member Apollonaught's Avatar
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Thanks Emre,

    Mikrolisk is a little too helpful and there are many possibles for "M".Ok,so like other wristwatches of this period they are essentially converted ladies pocket watches.
    Thanks for clarification that it`s an "M" not a "W" thats great and may help.The only markings so far that i can see are the "M" and brevet stamp.

    The ticking is good and loud dial down,but much quieter dial up,until it stops,so i would say it`s well overdue for a service.
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  5. #4
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollonaught View Post
    Hi,

    I am seeking information on an early Trench style watch,I have been lucky to be the recipient of forum member Scott (aka SDASurrey`s) kind generosity,and he has gifted me this watch out of good will.(THANKS MATE).


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image5.jpg 
Views:	218 
Size:	91.4 KB 
ID:	4279930


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image7.jpg 
Views:	201 
Size:	60.8 KB 
ID:	4279954

    P.s:There are no markings to inside case back.
    Nick - you are Very Welcome ! Sorry it took a while to post it - enjoy !! Cheers, Scott


    Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Cheers Scott,well worth the wait ,and if your ever over here it`s my shout mate.
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    Member Sdasurrey's Avatar
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Thanks - I used to go to both Melbourne and Sydney when I was consulting, maybe 30 times total - haven't been for a while but expect to relatively soon due to me new endeavour, so happy to look you up ! Cheers, Scott
    Apollonaught and busmatt like this.
    'Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.' -- Slim Pickens as Major T.J. 'King' Kong, Dr. Strangelove 1964

    __________________________________________________ __________
    My 'Show-Piece' - Zenith El Primero 'Red' Captain Ltd Edition #255/500
    My 'Grails' - 1920s & 1930s 18ct Gold Eberhard Monopusher chronos - with a Valjioux 65 movements
    My 'Fav' 1917 Silver Moser Trench
    Various vintage watches - Trench-style, Art Deco & 20s-50s chronographs - especially Eberhard & Longines

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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    I am sure it is an M
    The mark underneath is a depose mark so I think it means the 'M' is the registered trademark i.e. Marque Depose.

    If its 40mm+, I doubt it was ever a ladies pendant watch.
    Red 12, Roman Numerals, pin set.
    1900s to 1915s
    Thats just my feeling
    BUT what I find strange is the red 12. If this started like as a pocket watch, I doubt the red 12. Nope, I think it was always a wristwatch and an early one too

    Regards
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Thanks Horologist007,

    I know this is your area of expertise and appreciate your input.I made a mistake about the size,the case is 37mm without the crown,and 40 with.
    I was under the impression that because of the brass ring on the bezel that this was more of a decorative feature and something that would suit a ladies pocket watch,more say than a dedicated wristwatch?Emre asked if the case was gunmetal,to which i`m not quite sure,it could be,and where the inside bezel has not been effected by the elements it is quite black."Marque depose" sounds french,would that make sense then that it was made in France?
    "There are many paths leading up the mountain,but the view from the top is the same."

  10. #9
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Great watch Nick, Scott again at his most generous!
    I think it may have at least one jewel for the balance staff looking at your pics, not sure.
    The "M" will be either the movement manufacturer, or the movement designation letter, but not "marque". Just my opinion.
    The patent mark being in the balance well will bear no relation to the M. Are you sure there are no numbers in the well too?
    A look at the front of the movement could help, if you're feeling brave!

    Bob.

  11. #10
    Member Apollonaught's Avatar
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    Re: 1900`s Trench style watch,Red 12,Roman numerial dial.

    Thanks Bob,


    I can`t see any other numbers or letters apart from what i have already mentioned.I think the next long weekend i get off from work i will decase the movement to get a better look.The pin setting on these is separate to the movement right?So with the crown and stem out,and movement holding screw out,the movement just comes out the front?Lol,of course it has a jewel to balance.Regarding the "M" it looks well articulated and could be a manufacturer,could be something else,bit of a mystery.
    Last edited by Apollonaught; June 11th, 2015 at 09:38. Reason: front not back
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