any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

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  1. #1
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    any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    Name:  200561_1720885855764_1046842391_31485043_3066263_n.jpg
Views: 494
Size:  88.0 KBok, here's the starter.
    the rest are in the link below if this whets your appetite..


    pocket watch movement | Facebook


    i got this movement as a project i might not ever finish.
    when i got it, i noticed the balance wheel was not right so i removed the balance wheel bridge to loosen the staff and then the thing started wirring and slowly hissing. it was both the most frightening noise and coolest thing ever unexpected from a century plus year old movement at 1am. it looks like someone before me had attempted to remove then replaced the balance on the top of the gear it should go under. this bound the geartrain enough that it held it's power until i let it release with the removal of the balance.

    the hair spring had been apparently broken but all there.
    the weird thing is it looks like almost all the jewels had been removed as well as most of the balance screws?!.

    i have not tried to wind or set the watch in any way.

    i thought the community might get a kick out of an old movement that was probably the unwilling participant to a scrapper. why can't we just keep watches watches?

    on the cuvette, the 'SWISS' is so hard to read with or without loops, my friend and i were killing ourselves trying to make out the letters until it hit him, now all i can see is 'swiss'.

    i have more pics on the computer if anyone wants to see them.
    thanks!
    mark
    Last edited by ghosthunter242; April 1st, 2011 at 23:52.

  2. #2
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    this was an edited posting from failed uploads.
    thanks.
    mm
    Last edited by ghosthunter242; April 1st, 2011 at 23:53.

  3. #3
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    thanks for your patience.
    i figured out my computer will not upload to this site for some reason.
    so, i uploaded to facebook. linked one pic to it and the entire album in another link.
    thanks again.
    mark

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  5. #4
    Member radger's Avatar
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    Hi Mark,

    What you have here is an antique Swiss cylinder movement, key wind and
    six jewels. The train wheel pivot holes are plain so it does not appear to be missing
    any jewels and a balance of this type would have few if any screws, it doesn't
    look like any are missing.

    This type of movement is sometimes refered to as Lepine calibre, named after the watchmaker
    who designed this type of bridge work with hanging mainspring barrel and is a 'generic' design
    trait which the Swiss adopted for two millenia.

    Your movement probably dates C1850 and has nothing to do with the case it is in being
    a keywind movement. Unfortunately it will be nigh on impossible to identify the maker of this
    movement.

  6. #5
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    i am not debating anything you said, but i do have some questions though.
    if the pivot holes are 'plain' then why is there such a concavity?
    the balance has a few, uncounted, screws in place.
    would it not be odd that a circa 1850 mov't have a serial number that exactly coincides
    with a known manufacturer's serial number dating sequence? or is that coincidence?

    i ask these things not to debate, but because i am newer to the world of watches.
    the case on the watch is missing. the cuvette was the only piece left. the bezel, crystal, back and front covers were missing and i have no known history on the thing.

    thanks for the respons and thanks to all in advance for input.



    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    Hi Mark,

    What you have here is an antique Swiss cylinder movement, key wind and
    six jewels. The train wheel pivot holes are plain so it does not appear to be missing
    any jewels and a balance of this type would have few if any screws, it doesn't
    look like any are missing.

    This type of movement is sometimes refered to as Lepine calibre, named after the watchmaker
    who designed this type of bridge work with hanging mainspring barrel and is a 'generic' design
    trait which the Swiss adopted for two millenia.

    Your movement probably dates C1850 and has nothing to do with the case it is in being
    a keywind movement. Unfortunately it will be nigh on impossible to identify the maker of this
    movement.

  7. #6
    Vint. Forum Co-Moderator Mirius's Avatar
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    if the pivot holes are 'plain' then why is there such a concavity?
    This is normal where there are no jewels, as below. I would assume it was intended to act as an oil sink to compensate for the faster wear of metal on metal. That said I've seen it written somewhere that they work better with little lubrication, whether that is true or not I'm not competent to say.



  8. #7
    Member pithy's Avatar
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    Cylindre barrel - I like it. Pivots or tampon?
    Courtesy of ULF.

  9. #8
    Member trim's Avatar
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirius View Post
    TI would assume it was intended to act as an oil sink to compensate for the faster wear of metal on metal. That said I've seen it written somewhere that they work better with little lubrication.
    You oil non jeweled pivots just as you oil jeweled pivots.

    OP, while there is a lot of surface similarity in this type of movement, there are significant differences.

    Difference 1:

    if you look at the photo of your watch and the one in the book, you can see the the cock closest to the balance wheel is lower. This is because the escape wheel acts directly on the balance, via teeth like cut-outs in the balance 'staff' - this is what it means to be a cylinder movement. The one in the book has this cock higher (and with a cap jewel) and hidden under the balance is a extra cock, which takes a lever. The escape wheel now uses the lever to impart an impulse to the balance wheel.

    Difference 2:

    You'll notice the size of the balances. The one on yours small, the one in the book is about the largest you can fit in the movement without hitting the center wheel. As a general rule, the larger the balance - the better the watch. I think cylinder movements must always be limited in the size of the balance and otherwise you would need a proportionally larger escape wheel. I am sure it could be done, but simpler and better to use a lever if you want a big balance.


    So from a bad photo (e.g. ebay) if you are trying to tell the difference between a cylinder and lever movement, count the cocks (but some can be hard to see as in the book page above), look at the hight of the cock closest to the balance, and if it has a large balance it is a better watch almost certainly with a lever. A small plain balance is most usually a cylinder.

    K.
    Last edited by trim; April 3rd, 2011 at 00:46. Reason: Edited due to cut and paste madness.

  10. #9
    Vint. Forum Co-Moderator Mirius's Avatar
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    Quote Originally Posted by trim View Post
    You oil non jeweled pivots just as you oil jeweled pivots.
    Yes, I misremembered de Carle's comments which actually were regarding the pin pallet not the cylinder escapement MST and even there he was only talking of the escape wheel. I put together his comments regarding dirt ingress on these together with not oiling and made a conclusion from faulty memory :)


  11. #10
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    Re: any help identifying pocket watch movement ?

    a note regarding the mov't vs. the pic in the book.
    there is a 15 to 20 year difference if my estimations on my false assumptions on the serial number that conveniently coincided with patek's date of 1845-1850. maybe they got it right in 1865 and not earlier... just sayin.

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