Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

Thread: Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

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  1. #1
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    Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

    This is a A.Schild (AS in an oval on the dial side like the older ones on Roland's database) on the dial side. Nothing is visible under the balance, and I don't fancy taking it off for a better look as I am still not very good at getting them back in It does have another logo on the dial side, which is in a shield, and which I am completely unfamilar with.

    So, who knows what cal. it is? Seems not to be in Roland's database, although the dial side bears a passing family resemblance to some of the 3XX 10.5''' range.

    Seems like a very neat, good quality movement.

    I was trying to get a feel for the age of the watch it was in - it's from a hinge cased Rotary (with a very tired dial). But now I am curious and just want to know, and I am sure some of you are up for the challenge
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    Last edited by trim; June 18th, 2010 at 12:29.

  2. #2
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    Re: Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

    Hi trim,

    there are lots of versions of the AS 10.5''', and they are poorly recorded,
    and most aren't signed at all. Moreover copies from Arogno and ETA exist.
    It will last years until I'll have a certain order in my archive.

    Anyway, the logo with TR in a shield is the Ebauches-SA logo from 1936.
    It was used by the participating movement manufacturers almost only in
    1936, like here by A. Michel:
    http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-...&&2uswk&AM_270

    Regards, Roland Ranfft

  3. #3
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    Re: Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

    This isn't hard. The disguise is in the finger bridge. I've got a couple of them in the drawer.

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  5. #4
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    Re: Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Ranfft View Post
    Hi trim,
    Anyway, the logo with TR in a shield is the Ebauches-SA logo from 1936.
    It was used by the participating movement manufacturers almost only in
    1936, like here by A. Michel:
    http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-...&&2uswk&AM_270

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
    Wow! Thanks Roland, I never thought we'd be able to date it to the year.

  6. #5
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    Re: Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by enough View Post
    This isn't hard. The disguise is in the finger bridge. I've got a couple of them in the drawer.
    Hi enough, thanks for the PM. I certainly agree there is some similarity with the AS 340, but there are some differences in terms of the drillings etc. Perhaps that is simply evolution of the design.

    Closeups of the balance for you It is certainly interesting, and yes I completely missed that. The photos were a bit of a challenge, but hopefully clear enough.

    As for the finger bridge, they are separate - not faked. You can certainly remove each of the fingers without any problem. See attached photo for detail.

    In any case, the finishing to my eyes is of a very high standard, from the machine turning through to the beveling of the plates. I was and am still quite impressed to have pulled this out of a Rotary.
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    Last edited by trim; June 19th, 2010 at 09:27.

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    like peeling an onion

    Quote Originally Posted by trim View Post
    Hi enough, thanks for the PM. I certainly agree there is some similarity with the AS 340, but there are some differences in terms of the drillings etc. Perhaps that is simply evolution of the design.

    Closeups of the balance for you It is certainly interesting, and yes I completely missed that. The photos were a bit of a challenge, but hopefully clear enough.

    As for the finger bridge, they are separate - not faked. You can certainly remove each of the fingers without any problem. See attached photo for detail.

    In any case, the finishing to my eyes is of a very high standard, from the machine turning through to the beveling of the plates. I was and am still quite impressed to have pulled this out of a Rotary.
    You're a man after my own heart - you're as interested in the "guts" of the watch as the outward appearance!

    RR's speciman isn't representative of a large portion of the North American AS 340 population. [I've handle large numbers of these.] The pinons, wheels, gears, screws, springs, keyless, etc. will doubtless interchange but the bridges are styled radically different and few are faux gilt finish.

    Your watches is not common at all because the center wheel jewel is on the winding bridge. The finger bridges are a very nice "old school" touch. Note: Finger bridges require an extra steady pin and some of the holes in the 4:00 ish to 7:00 ish area may be for that purpose.

    Good pics of the balance cock! The polished "arm" that I inquired about appears to be for the purpose of retaining and tensioning the hs regulator.
    It may or may not hold the cap jewel in place. The second screw, closer to the jewel is the "give away" as to the arm's purpose. Have said that, I think that this design may have been influential in the transition to semi-hard mounted cap jewels that gave birth to our modern "anti-shoc" systems. And here is how: Just looking at the "retainer", it was obvious that if the "second" screw was removed and the arm was reduced in thickness, tempered and give a little "positive" tension that it could hold the cap jewel properly in place except in the case of a severe jolt. I have the subsequent system on some small Marvins and the evolution and derivation is unmistakable (I think).

    The "spotting" is nice on the plates but what's going on on the ratchet wheel. Does the etching have some commercial significance? Have you had the balance and pallet fork off?

    This is my kind of watch, interesting!

  8. #7
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    Re: Anyone up for a movement ID Challenge

    The etching is a pair of winged wheels, Rotary's logo to this day. Nice movement from a time when "even" a Rotary, which was always a mid range brand, had honest quality within.

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    Re: like peeling an onion

    Quote Originally Posted by enough View Post
    Good pics of the balance cock! The polished "arm" that I inquired about appears to be for the purpose of retaining and tensioning the hs regulator.
    It may or may not hold the cap jewel in place. The second screw, closer to the jewel is the "give away" as to the arm's purpose. Have said that, I think that this design may have been influential in the transition to semi-hard mounted cap jewels that gave birth to our modern "anti-shoc" systems. And here is how: Just looking at the "retainer", it was obvious that if the "second" screw was removed and the arm was reduced in thickness, tempered and give a little "positive" tension that it could hold the cap jewel properly in place except in the case of a severe jolt. I have the subsequent system on some small Marvins and the evolution and derivation is unmistakable (I think).
    Thanks for that

    It is possible that the 'second' screw closer to the cap is a location dowel (I can't make out any threading), and therefore this could still be something of an anti-shoc mechanism. It seems somewhat over the top engineering for establishing location only. On the other hand, as you point out, it is rather thick - so I expect you are 100% correct. None-the-less, I will investigate further when I dismantle.

    I have certainly enjoyed poking around with this movement, it has turned out to be quite an interesting piece.

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    I suspect an AS 489



    Cheers from the cellar

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    Re: I suspect an AS 489

    BINGO! Many thanks Cellar!

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