Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?
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  1. #1
    WSS
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    Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Hi, I purchased this watch many years ago from a reputable dealer and recently listed it on ebay to sell it. I received two email from members stating it was a fake!. I tried to get an extact from the archives from Patek Philippe and they said numbers do not match. I replied to them with the same photos and they did not respond, this happened twice. They offered no furthe advice.I did a valuemystuff check and there where many inconsitencies.

    I was told it was a c.1921 ear watch and the numbers simply do not match up with that I know. case number is 407775 and movement number is 948762

    Any input is appreciated!

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  2. #2
    Zenith Forum Co-moderator
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Welcome to the Vintage & PW forum. I would say that the movement is genuine but that the rest of the watch is rather suspect. Dial and especially case looks much newer than the movement, on top of that, it should be "Patek Philippe & Cie" or just "Patek Philippe" on the dial, not "...& Co". This suggests that, if the dial is original, it has been badly redialled. The black colour of the name on the inside of the case is also of more modern style than the movement. My verdict: a remake from a movement whose case was trashed (possibly by some oaf who knew nothing about watches and wanted the case for its gold content)!

    Hartmut Richter

  3. #3
    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Just some dumb observations from someone who doesn't really know many nuances of Patek production-

    1. The markings in the case back appear to be inked, and it would seem VERY atypical to me for this to be the case. I would expect to see them stamped into the metal of the back

    2. The dial quality looks "off" to me, in particular the printing of the Patek name.

    3. The movement finish is not what I would expect to see, in particular around the escapement. The hairspring stud is not an arrangement I recall ever having seen on a Patek.

    I would lean toward it being a fake, just as an opinion. The fact that Patek wouldn't issue an extract on it would be an indication as well.
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
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  5. #4
    WSS
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Hartmut, The movement is one I have not been able to find doing online searches. The numbers suggest it is from 1955-1960. Have you seen one like it?

    Ben, The mark on the case that appears like ink may be a trick of the light, to me it looks electro chem etched, there is no idication on the opposite side of the mark that it was stamped, possibly it was engraved. I use a chem-etcher for knives I make and it resembles that mark.

    One other thing that strikes me is that all the marks are the same, case, dial and movement. Is that common?

    Here is a copy/paste from the evaluation I recevied:

    "There are some oddities found with this Art Deco style watch. The major issue is the serial number on the movement although not 100% accurate in dating a Patek Philippe, does bear scrutiny. Approximate serial numbers on PP movements places it between 1955 (#940400) and 1960 (960500). The dial and style of the case is Art Deco (1920-40). The pendant and bow is in the style seen at the end the 19th century, while the Breguet hands tended to be used in the circa 1900 or earlier era primarily. The movement design does not match any PP movements that I have been able to find."

  6. #5
    Member Pianist's Avatar
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    I confirm that the watch is completely fake. Patek Philippe never produced this kind of movement.

    If you love pocket watches : http://www.pocketwatchesforum.com

  7. #6
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Ironically, it looks like a mid-quality Longines movement, which these days would be worth something in and of itself it someone hadn't tried to make a Patek out of it.
    My growing collection of "affordable" vintages: http://www.abslomrob.com

  8. #7
    WSS
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Ah, a Longines. No wonder I could not find a PP match for the movement. I did some searching and even the screw holes line up on many of the parts. Well it is off to the dealer I purchased it from and they will do thier own assesment. I am sure they will come to the same conclusion. They are a reputable and established jewler and they say no problem if it is a fake or even a marriage.

    WSS

  9. #8
    Zenith Forum Co-moderator
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Ah well, not even a Patek movement. The general style is that of Patek (plus VC, plus some JLC - plus of course some Longines) movements so when I could not identify it, I gave it the benefit of the doubt. I should however point out that in the old days, Patek made movements in various grades and not all reached the top standard in finissage that the modern movements have and that are required by the "Geneva seal". From that point of view alone, you could not exclude it as a fake.

    Hartmut Richter

  10. #9
    Member Eeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmut Richter View Post
    ...From that point of view alone, you could not exclude it as a fake.

    Hartmut Richter
    I am growing to learn what I was told about fakes when I first started in this obsession:

    You are often not absolutely sure. Over time, one learns to absorb as much data as possible and make a probabilistic assessment. But ultimately it is a feeling inside yourself that tells you if something is true/real or not. With enough experience that feeling gains in accuracy.

    ... looks like someone a $50 Longines into a no value fake... oh well. It took us a while so it wasn't intuitively obvious to the most casual observer
    "Forever is composed of nows." - Emily Dickinson

    "The watch has to be surrounded by a history.
    You need more than just a great design. You need to create an atmosphere around the product.
    Who is the company behind it? Why are they using this material?
    People need to be able to identify the watch with themselves. It's based on emotion." - Ralph Furter

    ...that's just my opinion and I've been wrong before and will be again and might be now!

  11. #10
    WSS
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    Re: Art Deco Patek Philippe, is it real?

    I want to follow up on this thread with some good news. I sent the watch to the company we purchased it from and they found it to be dodgy as well and they promptly sent me a check for the amount I paid for the watch. The shop used to be located in Disneyland resort and specialised in estate jewelry, which is probably why the watched slipped under the radar, it is not their specialty. they still have a shop in San Francisco were I sent the watch. This watch has sat in our safe for six years and they still stepped up.

    A big thanks to everyone who responded and helped me work it out!

    Tommy Voss
    WSS
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