Audemars freres pocket watch info?
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  1. #1
    Member boatswain's Avatar
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    Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Hi folks
    First time crossing over from the dive watch forum. Looking for any info on this watch gifted to me by a friend. Winds, runs and keeps time fairly well.
    My suspicion is that it is a replica of something else but I know next to nothing about pocket watches so I would appreciate any input.
    Thanks for the wisdom!

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  2. #2
    Member mkws's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Cheap, skeletonized movement, and the caseback inscriptions- although theoretically found on original pieces- are wrong here. I have heard of Geneve, but not "Ceneye".
    The original Audemars Freres brand was registered to a company of J.Lippetz in 1909. The original ones weren't anything too special either.
    Summarizing: this watch is a fake of bad quality.
    Sorry.
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  3. #3
    Member boatswain's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Thanks.

    I would have been shocked if it was anything other than what you described. I appreciate the clarity though. Now it can be used and abused and maybe even taken apart to learn with.

    Hah! Ceneye! That's funny and terrible Geneve makes a lot more sense!

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  5. #4
    Zenith Forum Co-moderator
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    I really had to laugh - I am surprised that they managed to spell "Audemars Freres" correctly. The rest is a loda of badly copied text, inscribed by people to whom western letters mean as much as chinese script to us. "Ceneye" is intended to be "Geneve", "DIDLOME DHONNE JP" is intented to read "DIPLOME D'HONNEURE" and "COHEERE PAR SHLENP DAUTRICHE" I can't really figure out myself. Any inputs? (I suspect that "DAUTRICHE" is "d'Autriche" - "of Austria")

    Hartmut Richter

  6. #5
    Member mkws's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Quote Originally Posted by boatswain View Post
    Thanks.

    I would have been shocked if it was anything other than what you described. I appreciate the clarity though. Now it can be used and abused and maybe even taken apart to learn with.

    Hah! Ceneye! That's funny and terrible Geneve makes a lot more sense!
    I think that it will make an excellent "practice ground" if you would ever want to learn how to service a watch on your own. At least messing it up will be no big loss
    I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it.
    Edgar Allan Poe

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
    George Orwell

    (...)but that's what mankind is like: they only prize what they no longer possess.
    Erich Maria Remarque

    For any inquiries regarding vintage Doxa watches, please read the highlighted text in my vintage Doxa thread. Sorry, but I will not respond to PMs on the matter.

  7. #6
    Member Emre's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmut Richter View Post
    I really had to laugh - I am surprised that they managed to spell "Audemars Freres" correctly. The rest is a loda of badly copied text, inscribed by people to whom western letters mean as much as chinese script to us. "Ceneye" is intended to be "Geneve", "DIDLOME DHONNE JP" is intented to read "DIPLOME D'HONNEURE" and "COHEERE PAR SHLENP DAUTRICHE" I can't really figure out myself. Any inputs? (I suspect that "DAUTRICHE" is "d'Autriche" - "of Austria")

    Hartmut Richter
    That's a lot of imagination of this art creator.

    "COHEERE PAR SHLENP DAUTRICHE" might mean that Audemars Ferers is in par of the Austrian Shlenp - which we might have missed as a high end watchmaker.

    The only 'PAR' used in Audemars Freres PWs are " Par L' Ancienne Maison Audemars Fondee en 1811 " L'Ancienne = D'Autriche? Thats a lot ...:)

    Maybe it's something like the Voynich Manuscript

  8. #7
    Member mkws's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    No, the Voynich Manuscript seems like the most legible thing in the world compared to this
    Emre likes this.
    I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it.
    Edgar Allan Poe

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
    George Orwell

    (...)but that's what mankind is like: they only prize what they no longer possess.
    Erich Maria Remarque

    For any inquiries regarding vintage Doxa watches, please read the highlighted text in my vintage Doxa thread. Sorry, but I will not respond to PMs on the matter.

  9. #8
    Member Audemars's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Audemars Frères was one of three successor companies set up after the 1885 bankruptcy of the Louis Audemars company, by Charles-Henri and Hector Audemars, grandsons of the original founder Louis-Benjamin Audemars.
    Audemars Frères operated until about 1910 when it had to be liquidated after a Russian customer "forgot" to settle a very large bill (six figures of Swiss fancs).

    I am bemused by the references earlier in this thread to "J.Lippetz in 1909" of whom I have never heard, and to the remark about their quality. Audemars Frères made very high grade watches and today their products (at least the earlier ones) are the subject of considerable interest to collectors.

    The other two successor companies were François Audemars Fils, set up by their elder brother François and - very confusingly - "Louis Audemars & Compagnie" founded by Louis Audemars-Valette, their cousin and my great-grandfather. Both were defunct by about 1900.

    A fourth "successor" company founded in about 1910 in London by my grandfather, also a Louis, was liquidated in 1969 following the death of my father.

    None of these had any connection with the illustrious and enduring company Audemars-Piguet founded in 1875 in the same Swiss village, Le Brassus, other than that Jules Audemars (an AP co-founder) appears to have been employed by Louis Audemars & Cie. He was my great-grandfather's second cousin.

    I note an increasing incidence of "Audemars" products appearing on internet auction sites which purport either to be "original" products or "original" movements re-cased as wristwatches.

    This one however is so blatant that it defies credibility. The date alone marks it out as a very bad and uninformed fake.

    Paul
    Audemars | Louis Audemars & Cie, Master Watchmakers, 1811 – 1885
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  10. #9
    Member mkws's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Great to know the story- the Lippetz result was, of course, in Mikrolisk. You might want to contact them in order to have that corrected. The Lippetz thing has been registered in La Chaux-de-Fonds. Possibly a company which tried to exploit a well-known name? Reminds me of the history with Patek suing a company called Pateck... Anyway, I must have seen these "copies" made back in the day which made me confuse two companies of the same name. Which was probably the intention of this Lippetz...
    I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it.
    Edgar Allan Poe

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
    George Orwell

    (...)but that's what mankind is like: they only prize what they no longer possess.
    Erich Maria Remarque

    For any inquiries regarding vintage Doxa watches, please read the highlighted text in my vintage Doxa thread. Sorry, but I will not respond to PMs on the matter.

  11. #10
    Member Audemars's Avatar
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    Re: Audemars freres pocket watch info?

    Well, as I say the Lippetz name rings no bells. But we have recently seen a couple of watches signed "Audemars E & Co La Chaux de Fonds" which had not come over my horizon before, so we did a bit of digging.

    It was registered in La Chaux de Fonds in 1924 by an Edouard-Henri Audemars, in collaboration with a M. Louis Kureth, native of the Canton de Berne and a M. Salomon Kirjasefer a business man originally from Latvia but living at that time in Warsaw.

    The business was dissolved in 1929-30. It had also called itself “Audemars & Co”, and we have some indications that they might have signed some watches “Louis Audemars & Cie, La Chaux de Fonds” – which would have been misleading at the time and even more so ninety-six years later.

    In 1921 my great-grandfather compiled a comprehensive Audemars genealogy reaching back to the 16thC. I can’t find Edouard-Henri. Neither does he appear in the lists of employees and outworkers of my ancestors’ business, where there were several Audemars not directly related to the principals.

    I think a couple of businessmen wanted to start a watch assembly business and “borrowed” a good name from a willing collaborator. By 1924 Audemars-Piguet were flourishing and the opprobrium attached to the 1885 failure of Louis Audemars & Cie had faded. As noted earlier in the thread the three successor companies had also failed (1900 & 1910) and there would have been only a small chance of my grandfather objecting all the way from London.

    This looks like a similar case, probably Edouard trying to capitalize on the name some ten years earlier.

    As regards to the Audemars Freres quality, I have no axe to grind and I'm no horological expert either. Folk can think whatever they want. But research helps before making judgements and anyone who is interested will find some very good pictures of Audemars Freres' products in the book about the Audemars dynasty published in 2003 by Herr Hartmut Zantke.

    Paul
    Audemars | Louis Audemars & Cie, Master Watchmakers, 1811 – 1885

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