Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

Thread: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

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  1. #1
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    Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    I have a watch my father I believe bought years and years ago, dont know where but I had it around for years myself now, dont know where he got it at, but the tag at one time on it said England Circa 1820, dont know how accurate it is, but the pocket watch looks similiar to this

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rodbev/324321652/

    noting my watch is exactly like this one but no writting on the face of the clock and it has the chain and key still.

    it does look worn down though, the watch in question still has its chain attached to it with a key on it with a 6 pointed star on one side of the key and a number 4 on the other side. Inside the cover I see a shield with the letters LP in it, as well as a image of a lion inside a box and the letter Z in another box. the Serial Number reads; 48169.

    Inside where you wind it with the key on the back of the plate, it has the same symbols plus another which is a shield with an anchor in it, then above the serial numbers it has some writing that looks like CC1713 which looks like it was inscribed into it but its upside down from what everything else is.

    The face in question where you put in the key to wind it up and where the keyhold is to adjust the clock it reads "Examined By Mann & Son Cross Glouscester.

    I am assuming some of the watch was probably replaced at one point such as the face and that piece where it says it was examined.

    Any idea what exactly I got here?

  2. #2
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    We really can't help you with identification without seeing some actual pictures of the watch, movement and the inside of the case. What you have described sounds mostly like silver hallmarks. From the sounds of it you haven't really opened up the case to see the movement.
    The lion in a box is a Sterling symbol. The anchor is a Birmingham assay office mark. The Z could be a year code from 1823, 1849, 1874 or 1899. LP is probably the case maker's mark. The serial number is useless for identification.
    Since we are talking about 75 years of watchmaking history - at a time when real progress was being made - a watch from 1823 is going to be vastly different from one of 1899.
    If you can post some pictures we can probably help you figure it out. What you have without photos is a puzzle.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    Hi there,

    LP is the makers mark, but only few are known.
    The lion certificates Sterling silver, the anchor is the Birmingham hallmark,
    and the letter represents the manufacturing year of the case.
    As only 52 letters are possible (lower and upper case) also the style of the
    letter is important. But you can look up the right year here:
    http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/hmarks.htm

    Regards, Roland Ranfft

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  5. #4
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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Ranfft View Post
    Hi there,

    LP is the makers mark, but only few are known.
    The lion certificates Sterling silver, the anchor is the Birmingham hallmark,
    and the letter represents the manufacturing year of the case.
    As only 52 letters are possible (lower and upper case) also the style of the
    letter is important. But you can look up the right year here:
    http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/hmarks.htm

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
    Well what I know so far from that website, these are symbols on the case;


    This is the type of shield it displays is #4


    I will grab a pic if I can of the watch though, thats the only 2 marks I found on that website, the Anchor in question while I found a image that looks like it, its in the #4 shield as well much like the LP it was displaying.

    what caught my eye though is the numbers that look like that was engraved inside by someone which displayed CC1713, is this type of numbers given at birth in England or something? I was curious and typed in England CC1713 in search, it came back coincidentally someone who has my last name that was born in England in 1775 and CC1713 was part of the tree, dont know what it means though, the CC1713 itself.

  6. #5
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    What we need to see is the movement itself plus the letter Z or z. This will give a good indication of the time period.
    CC1713 is probably a case serial number, which won't help much in the identification. Again without a picture we really can't say.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray MacDonald View Post
    What we need to see is the movement itself plus the letter Z or z. This will give a good indication of the time period.
    CC1713 is probably a case serial number, which won't help much in the identification. Again without a picture we really can't say.
    Heres my question

    how the living hell you take a pic up close? I got 100mm polaroid and all the pics come out so blurry you cant even make out anything.

  8. #7
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    Do you have a friend with a digital camera? That is the best way to do it.
    Also how does the letter z look to you on your watch case?

    Z
    z
    Z
    z
    the first two are large and small "sans serif" and the second two are large and small "serif" (they have little flags at the ends of the letters.) This is important.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    Looks like this, problem is its hard to really make out if its upper or lower case though unless I had seen both different letters on a watch. it appears to be uppercase but I am really uncertain. It could very well be lower case, I just need a guide to compare what upper and lower case is in these watches to really be sure.


    Z
    z
    Last edited by Sarentack; February 5th, 2008 at 21:32.

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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    I also have 2 digital cameras, ones a pocket camera and one can be used for digital and as web cam, the photos those take up close you cant make out anything either, its only like 300k pixel or something.


    But anyway, problem with http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/hmarks.htm from looking at the table below where Z is indicated on it, none of the dates matchup with the #4 marking of a shield from the key legend on top of that chart.



    Since its not on the website, the Anchor is displayed inside the #4 marking.

    The initials of what appears to be initials of LP is displayed inside the #4 Marking.

    On the movement it has the #4 Marking of what looks like just an L in it, hard to make it out since its scratched some.

    Also the Z in question is inside the #4 marking and inside a shaded small Box. The Z in the shaded box is similiar to the #5 marking,its in the inside of the front cover, and the one inside the #4 marking is inside the back cover. Oddly enough though the Z inside the back cover seems to be lower case, but its hard to tell, both Z's look different.
    Last edited by Sarentack; February 5th, 2008 at 21:43.

  11. #10
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Chellew & Wilson Donald - Made In England ??? Or something else?

    OK based on what you've said in your last post. I'd say that the case hallmark dates the silver case to 1874. Given that the watch is a keywind that makes sense. So in the absence of a photo that is the best I can do.
    By the way there is a William Mann Jewellers located on the corner of Cross Keys and Southgate in Gloucester. Might be the same firm.
    Last edited by Ray MacDonald; February 6th, 2008 at 00:08.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

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