Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?
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Thread: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

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  1. #1
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    Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    Hello, my friends!

    Yesterday I saw interesting watches. Owner told me that it is old NOS german Chronometre Ancre from 1930's. But I can't find any trustworthy information about it. On Ebay there is a couple of different Ancor watches from 1930's-1940's, and all of them looks like new... It's makes me doubt: maybe it's new-made fake?

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    Please, somebody, tell me any information about Ancor or about Wagner. Is this watch truly NOS vintage?

    Thank you.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    Not an expert, but in my opinion it is straight vintage and not "new old stock" NOS vintage.

    That movement has seen better days. If it is NOS, it was not stored very well.
    Can't tell if that is a scratch on the dial or crystal. If dial, then again not NOS.
    And also it looks like the paint on the numbers has been touched up at some point whereas it hasn't on the name Ancre.

    Either way, whomever picks this up will need to take in for a servicing/cleaning before wearing it.
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    I've got more Converse sneakers than watches, but it is a close race.

  3. #3
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxdart View Post
    Hello, my friends! Yesterday I saw interesting watches. Owner told me that it is old NOS german Chronometre Ancre from 1930's. But I can't find any trustworthy information about it. On Ebay there is a couple of different Ancor watches from 1930's-1940's, and all of them looks like new... It's makes me doubt: maybe it's new-made fake? Please, somebody, tell me any information about Ancor or about Wagner. Is this watch truly NOS vintage? Thank you.
    Firstly, if you were going to go the effort and risk of counterfeiting -would you print one dollar ($1.00) notes or twenties ($20.00). Applying this illustration analogously to your query:

    This watch is a comparative One Dollar bill.

    Secondly, the condition of this watch can be ascertained at distance with the same degree of accuracy that an autopsy could be conduct under similar circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJohnP View Post
    Not an expert, but in my opinion it is straight vintage and not "new old stock" NOS vintage. That movement has seen better days. If it is NOS, it was not stored very well. Can't tell if that is a scratch on the dial or crystal. If dial, then again not NOS. And also it looks like the paint on the numbers has been touched up at some point whereas it hasn't on the name Ancre. Either way, whomever picks this up will need to take in for a servicing/cleaning before wearing it.
    I see nothing abnormal with regard to the lettering on the dial for an aged watch. The movement appears pristine save for oxidation present on it and its ring. The bridge oxidation is eerily reminiscent of that present on a few new old stock ebauche lots (from the same approximate period) that I have purchased and or examined. The crown and or stem looks askew (bent?) in the photos.


    p
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  5. #4
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    It is obviously from the ETA 810 family, some sort of conversion to indirect central seconds hand (possibly Cal. 816):

    bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: ETA 810

    As for it being a chronometre or just being branded that, I suspect the latter. ETA movements were good (and still are) but other than the dial inscription, there is no indication of this having passed a COSC test (e.g. inscription on the movement - and after all, it's movements that are tested, not watches!).

    Hartmut Richter
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  6. #5
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    TheJohnP, pithy, thank you for your answers! It is a valuable information for me.

    But does anybody know something about Ancor or Wagner marks? And is movement and watches Swiss or, maybe, from Germany?

  7. #6
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    Hartmut Richter, thank you too! Important addition.

  8. #7
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    Hi!

    Nice watch, Hartmut already identified the movement. To the term "Chronometre" on the dial:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hartmut Richter View Post
    As for it being a chronometre or just being branded that, I suspect the latter. ETA movements were good (and still are) but other than the dial inscription, there is no indication of this having passed a COSC test (e.g. inscription on the movement - and after all, it's movements that are tested, not watches!).
    From 1915 on, a Swiss watch or movement didn´t need to pass a test to be called a chronometer, it just had to meet the specifications of the "master chronometer" movement of the Suisse des Associations de Fabricants d'Horlogeri, being regulated in different positions at different temperatures. This is a more liberal practice - the term "chronometer" still had been defined but not really protected in sense of an official control.
    1951, the Suisse des Associations de Fabricants d'Horlogeri gave up the old definition and the test at one of the Bureaus officiels de controle de la marche des mastres became obligatory again.
    The COSC came 1972 and standardised the definitions of the chronometer tests.

    I think this watch was made after WWII, in the 2nd half of the 1940s, surely before 1951, so a chronometer per Swiss definition.
    The movement is Swiss, though marked with the logo of the Uhrenfabrik(watch factory) Ernst Wagner, Pforzheim, Germany.

    Ernst Wagner founded the Uhrenfabrik Ernst Wagner in 1933 and produced watchcases and watches with bought in movements(a lot of them with UROFA 58), at first under the brandname Erwa(ERnst WAgner) and almost for military use.
    After WWII, they went on with watchcases and civil watches(up to end of the 1950s), movements came from Felsa and, as seen here, ETA, maybe also from others. In the 1950s, they delivered watchcases to GUB in the GDR. 1960, they became member of the EPORA, a German collective of watch and watchpart-producers. Not known when they gave up business, probably at the latest inner the quartz crisis of the 1970s.

    The brandname "Ancre" had been also used by other watch producers, the best known of them is Ancre Goupille.
    Last edited by mike184; May 7th, 2012 at 00:51.
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    Best regards, Mike

  9. #8
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    Re: Chronometre Ancre by Ernst Wagner - isn't fake?

    Mike, thank you! Very valuable information for me. :)

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