A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

Thread: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

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  1. #1
    Member mikeyt_53's Avatar
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    A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    hi all,

    Hoping for a little help on this one. I'm not very familiar with pocket watches but i have a couple of size 18 Walthams here. One is a model 1883 with an 825 - 17 jewell movement & a "Banner" case from 1912 and the other is a model 1892 lever set with an 845 - 21 jewell movement and an Empress case from 1913. The first belonged to my great-grandfather and the 2nd to my grandfather. The 1883 seems to run well & is very clean although the case shows signs of heavy wear. The 1892 is missing the sub-second hand but appears to run, is very clean and again exhibits significant case wear.

    I've tried to do some reading up on these old Walthams but i'm not finding much info on the case manufacturers, the case material (are they gold filled or ??) as i can't find any identification marks and most importantly, what size hands do i need replace the missing seconds hand on the 1892?

    Name:  Waltham 1883_825 dial.JPG
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Size:  939.2 KBName:  Waltham 1883_825 Banner case back 2.JPG
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Size:  856.5 KBName:  Waltham 1883_825 movement.JPG
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Size:  890.8 KBName:  Waltham 1892_845 Empress case back.JPG
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  2. #2
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    Re: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    The cases of both your watches are of Canadian origin. While no watch movements were manufactured in Canada many US made movements were imported as movements only and then cased in Canadian cases. There was a high tariff on US cases to protect the Canadian makers. Sorry, but the brain cells can't remember the name of the Canadian company, possibly the North American Watch Case Co., but don't hold me to that.

  3. #3
    Member mikeyt_53's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    hi Ron,

    Thanks for that bit of information. I believe the watch case company you are referring to was the A.W.C.Co. (American Watch Case Co.) which had its headquarters in Toronto at the same time a similarly named company was based in NYC. A little research determined that Empress with the crown was a 10k YG rolled plate case produced by AWCC. I haven't been able to find anything out about the Banner watch case though other than it might be related to P.W. Ellis & Co. based in Toronto during the early part of the 20th century. I say that only because the Ellis Co. used an "E" inside a square as their trademark and the Banner mark (Maple Leaf with an "E" in the middle) was somewhat similar. I wouldn't stake my life on that though. I'm also assuming that the Banner case is 10k RGP as the wear on both cases is similar.

    As for the hands, i'm befuddled by the sizing. Can u or anyone else tell me what size the hands are on the model 1892? I would really like to replace that missing seconds hand.

    EDIT: a bit more searching on the NAWCC site confirmed that Banner was one of the trademarks used by the Ellis Company which eventually became part of Henry Birks & Sons here in Canada. Again it appears to be a 10k RGP case.
    Last edited by mikeyt_53; December 18th, 2012 at 02:15.

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  5. #4
    Member mikeyt_53's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    No one with information on the sizing of the hands for this model 92?

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    Member mikeyt_53's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    OK, can anyone tell me if these are 'railroad' grade pocket watches & what are the features that determine this?

  7. #6
    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    The 845 is and the 825 is not.

    The specific set of features which determine whether or not a watch is railroad grade depends largely on the time when the watch was made, and on line where the watch was going to be used.

    The 825 was never intended as a railroad grade movement. The key disqualifying feature is that it is not adjusted.

    The 845 was introduced as and advertised as a railroad grade watch. It is 21j, lever set, adjusted to 5 positions, and has double roller escapement.
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
    Member, NAWCC Chapter 149. Vice President and Secretary NAWCC Chapter 140. Member, NAWCC Convention Committee.
    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

  8. #7
    Member mikeyt_53's Avatar
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    Re: A couple of old Walthams....with questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_hutcherson View Post
    The 845 is and the 825 is not.

    The specific set of features which determine whether or not a watch is railroad grade depends largely on the time when the watch was made, and on line where the watch was going to be used.

    The 825 was never intended as a railroad grade movement. The key disqualifying feature is that it is not adjusted.

    The 845 was introduced as and advertised as a railroad grade watch. It is 21j, lever set, adjusted to 5 positions, and has double roller escapement.
    Thanks Ben, very much appreciated!

    Have a great Christmas and a Safe & Happy New Year!!

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