Elgin - bad re-dial?
Like Tree11Likes

Thread: Elgin - bad re-dial?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    2,793

    Elgin - bad re-dial?

    Another Elgin arrived today. One thing made me suspicios straight away. It came in a nice silky bag from a jeweller in Antalya, Turkey. But perhaps, the sender just wanted to protect the watch and used this bag, which originally served another purpose.

    The watch runs fine, the movement looks right, but the dial seems wrong. The numbers are too close to the sides and when I opened the case, I saw that the sides of the dial had been bent down, but I don't know how any dial would fit into the shape of the case if straight. I paid around 80 Dollars for it. Would it be worth that price even with a squeezed in re-dial?

    And I sincerely hope noone comes along telling me that this is not an Elgin at all!
    Attached Images Attached Images















    Last edited by Border-Reiver; June 9th, 2015 at 19:32. Reason: typo
    bobbee likes this.

  2. #2
    Member mkws's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,533

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    You shouldn't worry about this watch being an Elgin- here's the movement:
    bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Elgin 537
    It's an Elgin 537 (the 17 jewels variant- 536 and 538 had 15 and 21 jewels respectively).
    The Ranfft archive states, that the movement has only been produced in 1938- if the data are correct, that's when your watch was manufactured.
    I'm pretty confident that it's a redial, but whether it is a relatively good one or a horrible butcher job, I don't know. Didn't see enough original pieces to determine what looks odd and what is correct. I mean it only in terms of the paint job on it, the squeezing looks strange. That's because it seems unevenly bent all throughout, but maybe it's just the photo angle, or because in terms of Elgin I'm an utter idiot.
    No straight dial would fit- the way the bowl-like caseback's sides are shaped excludes the possibility of a straight (flat) dial.
    Border-Reiver likes this.
    I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it.
    Edgar Allan Poe

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
    George Orwell

    (...)but that's what mankind is like: they only prize what they no longer possess.
    Erich Maria Remarque

    For any inquiries regarding vintage Doxa watches, please read the highlighted text in my vintage Doxa thread. Sorry, but I will not respond to PMs on the matter.

  3. #3
    Member Paleotime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    2,743

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    I have two examples of a similar dial in my parts store (both gold colored rather than white). Both are heavily curved on both sides. So I don't think your dial is modified.

    The movement dates to about 1946 - which is right for the surge of roman dials. I know the gold dial is in the 1941 or 1942 catalog with a similar case. I have never seen a 1946 catalog so...

    Here is a picture of my dials for comparison...
    Name:  ElginDials.jpg
Views: 120
Size:  119.0 KB
    bobbee, busmatt and Border-Reiver like this.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    WatchUSeek.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    2,793

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    @ mkws and paleotime: Thanks, you make me feel better! I am around with verge watches for 30 years, but had never looked at wrist watches before joining this forum. Anyhow, it runs extremely well, which is however difficult to say with this kind of dial after just a few hours. Will see what it shows after 24 hours. On the time scale, I had almost identical readings in all possible positions.
    mkws likes this.

  6. #5
    Member Paleotime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    2,743

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    You are welcome...

    Most of the Elgin 15/0s I have in my collection are really good runners. They are nice movements - well constructed and well finished. Your timing machine shows it running good - excellent amplitude and overall time keeping.

    BTW...All the 15/0s look similar (and are for the most part) - yours is the grade 558 (rather than the 537). It is the 17j movement - which was the Deluxe line (regular Elgins were 15 or 7j) again correct for the dial.

    I think it is a beaut.
    Border-Reiver likes this.

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    SF Bay Area, California
    Posts
    1,909

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    It's not the right dial for that case. That dial goes with this one -



    Here's what your case goes with:



    I'm a big fan of the 15/0s. They're neat little movements! The serial number of yours puts it around 1947 or so. The 536 series was superceded by the 557 series in about 1940. The 536 series are immediately distinguishable from the later 15/0s by the ABSENCE of beveling on the edges.

    Compare this 536 (unmarked mvt on the left) and 557 (on the right), and note how the edges of the 557 are beveled and polished.

    Border-Reiver likes this.
    Don't take life so serious, son. It ain't nohow permanent - Pogo

    My Elgin Blog...

  8. #7
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    2,793

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    Thanks Gene Jockey! So, a bit of an Elgin-internal franken.

    It ran overnight and is still right on time and ticking away. When I put it on the timescale, I saw at first that it was runnin fast and someone must have done this intentionally. The escapement regulator is right in the middle now (not shown on the pictures, as the first ones were taken before). If it's made around 1947, that would be my birth year and I might even wear it. Unlike some of the Gothams, Bulovas etc. I have, it takes a wider wrist band, making it look more like a men's watch (which they all are, according to the taste of these days).

  9. #8
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    2,793

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    Now that I have the information about the movements, another question: Is there a source to find the lift-angle for the different Elgin movements?

    On a timescale, the accuracy and the beat error (between tick and tack) can be determined without knowing the lift angle. It is different with the amplitude, which ia also an important reading for analysis. The balance oszillation, like 18,000 or 21,600 etc. is found automatically (if the watch is generally in order). The lift angle is pre-set by default at 52 degrees. This is fairly standard with most watches and if they differ a bit, that is not so important, like 50 or 51 or 53 degrees. But it can be dramatically different. On an old Omega pocket watch I have, the lift angle is unusually far away from the standard with 38 degrees and then the amplitude reading between a default setting of 52 degrees and a manual setting of 38 degrees is a totally different thing (don't worry about the beat error, that fluctuates for a while in the beginning).

    Coming back to my original question, making it more general: Did they even care about these things in the vintage days or did they keep this technical data for their movements?

    Here is a good link for the lift angle in more modern movements: http://www.lepsi.ch/lift-angle/
    Attached Images Attached Images

    Last edited by Border-Reiver; June 10th, 2015 at 20:39. Reason: Link added

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    SF Bay Area, California
    Posts
    1,909

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    I have not found, in any technical documents from the Elgin National Watch Company, any listing of lift angles. I think you're safe with 52 for any of their wrist watches after 1935 or so - the earlier ones maybe as well, but I don't know. The pocket watches? Not a clue.

    There IS a way to determine it. It involves observing where the balance arms are when at rest, completely wound down. Then wind it up JUST until you see the balance arms stopping at the same place on each end of the swing. That should be 180 degrees. Adjust the lift angle on the timing machine till it reads 180, and you've got it. It requires good lighting, and good eyes! - and a movement with at least 180 degrees of amplitude!
    Border-Reiver likes this.
    Don't take life so serious, son. It ain't nohow permanent - Pogo

    My Elgin Blog...

  11. #10
    Member Paleotime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    2,743

    Re: Elgin - bad re-dial?

    Did they even care about these things in the vintage days
    They definitely cared about it...I have book titled "Watch Escapements" by Pellaton which discusses lift angle at length - both of the balance and of the lever. The book is undated on the coversheet - but an owner signed his name and dated it 1937.

    If anyone is looking for a good, detailed book about the action of the escapement - this is a good one.
    Border-Reiver likes this.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

    Similar Threads

    1. FS: Vintage Deco ELGIN E-9 ~ Fancy ENGRAVED Case w/NOS Elgin Strap~REDUCED!
      By stophmaster in forum Watches - Private sellers and Sponsors
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: November 27th, 2012, 02:36
    2. WTB: Elgin or Lord Elgin Diver, late 60's to early 70's
      By Patrick_Ethan in forum WTB - Wanted to Buy
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: November 12th, 2011, 21:35
    3. FS: Elgin Time: A History of the Elgin National Watch Company - $25.00 CONUS
      By franzy in forum Watches - Books, Parts, Tools, Winders & other Accessories
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: August 28th, 2011, 12:46
    4. GOOD Casio, Bad Bad Bad G-Shock
      By bajachild in forum Casio G-Shock
      Replies: 23
      Last Post: October 11th, 2010, 02:28
    5. Warning: XCEL Watches (bad, bad, bad)
      By robertrock in forum Casio G-Shock
      Replies: 8
      Last Post: June 13th, 2009, 17:29

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •