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  1. #81
    Member busmatt's Avatar
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by Literustyfan View Post
    Don't worry, if I happen to get hit by a bus before the next book comes out my wife has instructions on what to do with all of my research materials and evidence.

    LOL!

    Everything will get into the proper hands.......................
    That's right, blame everything on the poor Bus Driver

    Matt


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  2. #82
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by busmatt View Post
    That's right, blame everything on the poor Bus Driver

    Matt


    Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD
    HaHaHa
    Go get him!!!
    Literustyfan and busmatt like this.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
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  3. #83
    Member busmatt's Avatar
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    HaHaHa
    Go get him!!!
    It's not my fault, honest

    Matt


    Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD
    " I can't wear this uniform, without some compromises "
    Chesney Hawkes


    "I larf, I Larf, I wee I pants, I make I leg go rusty."
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  5. #84
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by Literustyfan View Post
    "Secret evidence", yes it is in my possession.

    No, not all of them had a black finish obviously.

    It is unknown who exactly treated the cases at this point, the manufacturer or a 3rd party who was selling the watches to the US Army as per General Specification 579-D which required the cases to have a "dull black finish".

    This requirement started on October 24, 1916.

    Those of you who have my book, read page #7.


    But, keep in mind when reading page 7 that the General Specification was once again changed in early 1918 to allow cases of other materials and designs to be purchased.

    I don't have a doubt in my mind that the 1918 spec also required black dials.

    The spec also changed requiring that the cases be "threaded" (aka, semi-hermetic) in 1918 from the "snap-together" versions.

    Cases made by Fahys and the Illinois Watch Case Company prove this fact.

    The updated 1918 General Specification has unfortunately been lost in time though, but clues were left behind if you know how to piece the puzzle back together.

    It took me about 5+ years to piece back together what I know pertaining to the updated 1918 General Specification.
    Hi I apologise for drawing you out on this subject but hey, it was your post on the 'black painted' silver Khaki
    which first generated the discussion.

    First off, nothing is obvious to me at least, concerning early mass produced U.S wrist watches.

    What I find interesting is your claims that either a manufacturer or third party was painting or processing silver
    watches to sell to the U.S Army.
    Do the specs you quote mention that the watch cases should be silver? or do these specs generalise on material requirements?
    Me, I just shake my head in wonder, I mean why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to paint it black?
    Surely nickel or brass would be a more sensible choice.

    Have you ever saw one of these black painted Kahki silver wristwatches you say were being supplied to the U.S Army?
    Surely one must exist somewhere, perhaps in a military museum.

  6. #85
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    Hi I apologise for drawing you out on this subject but hey, it was your post on the 'black painted' silver Khaki
    which first generated the discussion.

    First off, nothing is obvious to me at least, concerning early mass produced U.S wrist watches.

    What I find interesting is your claims that either a manufacturer or third party was painting or processing silver
    watches to sell to the U.S Army.
    Do the specs you quote mention that the watch cases should be silver? or do these specs generalise on material requirements?
    Me, I just shake my head in wonder, I mean why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to paint it black?
    Surely nickel or brass would be a more sensible choice.

    Have you ever saw one of these black painted Kahki silver wristwatches you say were being supplied to the U.S Army?
    Surely one must exist somewhere, perhaps in a military museum.
    You mean this post?
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/elg...l#post12883266

    Surely tarnish.
    A
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  7. #86
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    You mean this post?
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/elg...l#post12883266

    Surely tarnish.
    A
    Indeed.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever saw an example of a black painted silver wristwatch?

  8. #87
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    Indeed.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever saw an example of a black painted silver wristwatch?
    No, as I posted here or the other thread that you asked.
    The three on permanent display (two black painted and one brown) are not silver.

    I had just never thought about it till you raised that question
    A
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  9. #88
    Member radger's Avatar
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    No, as I posted here or the other thread that you asked.
    The three on permanent display (two black painted and one brown) are not silver.

    I had just never thought about it till you raised that question
    A
    Ah my apologies, I thought you might actually own one.

    While searching the internet for an example of a black painted silver watch I came
    across a post by a 'Gladiatior' showing his original silver Waltham complete with box but also intact and 'original black paint'.
    Unfortuanately the pics were gone, I thought it might have been yours s'all.

  10. #89
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    Hi I apologise for drawing you out on this subject but hey, it was your post on the 'black painted' silver Khaki
    which first generated the discussion.

    First off, nothing is obvious to me at least, concerning early mass produced U.S wrist watches.

    What I find interesting is your claims that either a manufacturer or third party was painting or processing silver
    watches to sell to the U.S Army.
    Do the specs you quote mention that the watch cases should be silver? or do these specs generalise on material requirements?
    Me, I just shake my head in wonder, I mean why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to paint it black?
    Surely nickel or brass would be a more sensible choice.

    Have you ever saw one of these black painted Kahki silver wristwatches you say were being supplied to the U.S Army?
    Surely one must exist somewhere, perhaps in a military museum.

    In 1916 the requirement was Nickel but I believe that this was changed in early 1918 to allow for the use of Silverode, Silverine, Nickel Silver, Ore Silver and Sterling Silver, evidence strongly suggests this.

    But, like I said before, the 1918 documents spelling out the General Specification have been lost in time but clues remain.

    When war breaks out the rules quickly change, shortages of one metal means that another one takes it's place.

    I do not know how or why they came to the decisions when it comes to case materials, nobody will probably ever know the answers to that one.

    I never said that Khaki sterling silver wrist watches were being supplied to the US Army, I only quoted the specifications that were required by the US Army pertaining to a black finish on the cases.
    busmatt likes this.
    Author of "Elgin Trench Watches of the Great War" & "Waltham Trench Watches of the Great War"

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  11. #90
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW

    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    Ah my apologies, I thought you might actually own one.

    While searching the internet for an example of a black painted silver watch I came
    across a post by a 'Gladiatior' showing his original silver Waltham complete with box but also intact and 'original black paint'.
    Unfortuanately the pics were gone, I thought it might have been yours s'all.
    Strange, sound like mine, and the one I posted above, which is tarnished.
    do you have a link to that thread?
    thanks
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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