It is enough to decide it's authencity by verifying the movements?

Thread: It is enough to decide it's authencity by verifying the movements?

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  1. #1
    Member Niordian's Avatar
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    It is enough to decide it's authencity by verifying the movements?

    Hi,

    I understand that alot of factors (cosmetic conditions, originality of dial etc) affect a vintage watch pricing. But it is enough to just verify it's movements of particular type of make to judge the watch authencity? Meaning as long as the movements physically is the same as a reference piece, that is a authentic watch.

    For example, is there an imitation for particular movements? Are there reproduction of end-of-life movements? (which i doubt so as it is too costly)

  2. #2
    Member JohnF's Avatar
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    Re: It is enough to decide it's authencity by verifying the movements?

    Hi -

    Not a simple question, hence no simple answer.

    In the world of Omega, for instance, there are numerous incarnations, over time, of one and the same watch type (Seamaster, for instance). Generally speaking, given equal condition, an older Omega may well command a significantly higher price than a newer version. Hence an unscrupulous watch seller might find a really old Omega in great cosmetic condition, but with a rotten watchworks inside, and replace it with much newer innards and sell it to the unsuspecting/unknowing consumer for 5-10x what the watch would have otherwise been worth.

    Hence yes, you need to verify the calibre to ensure the watch's authenticity.

    But that's Omega, who has been keeping really good records. Might the same be said for other makers?

    Probably not as much. I don't know enough about Rolex to say that the same thing might be true.

    If you are talking about taking the same calibre and swapping it into a different case and face, then I can't see any major problem, unless, of course, that the collector buying the watch wants everything to be pristine and in original condition. Then you need to be up-front about what has happened to the watch (original damaged due to neglect, NOS calibre used to replace it, for instance), and not answer first when someone asks. That would be, fundamentally, dishonest.

    There are more than a few watches out there where the case and the movement have serial numbers and an intrepid collector can find out if the two actually could have been put together.

    There aren't, as far as I know, "imitations" of particular movements: unless someone gets the actual tooling used for that particular kind of watch (like the Soviets did for some Swiss chronograph calibres), the cost of tooling up and re-creating such a calibre is fairly expensive, and unless there is very strong demand, unlikely (and if the demand is so strong, the original maker wouldn't have abandoned it, eh?).

    JohnF
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  3. #3
    Member Niordian's Avatar
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    Re: It is enough to decide it's authencity by verifying the movements?

    Hi John,

    Thanks for sharing.
    Let's take Heuer watches as an example (it's one of the watches on my wish list ), have you came across reproduction of the valjoux movements in the market?

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  5. #4
    Member JohnF's Avatar
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    Re: It is enough to decide it's authencity by verifying the movements?

    Hi -

    Yes. There are chinese calibres that are based on old Venus calibres, and the Soviet/Russian 3133 calibre and its derivatives (3169, etc) are derived from an older Valjoux.

    But both of these do NOT have the same quality of finishing, etc. They are, instead, workhouse chronographs, i.e. designed for mass use with little or no finishing.

    But they can be used as spare parts, for instance, if one is willing to accept the lower finishing quality.

    JohnF
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