Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

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  1. #1
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    Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    I am trying to figure out the age and originality of this watch. The movement is private labelled "Scharnke & Will, Pittsburgh PA" but it also says Fogg's patent and a number.

    Can I use the standard Waltham serial numbers to date?

    The movement appears to be key wound. However the dust cover hole does not line up with the winding movement. Does this indicate a modified movement or a new(er) case for an older movement? There are number markings on the case but no maker listed.

    Finally, the crystal seems to be very thick. Again this leads me to believe that the case is a replacement. And I am not sure what happened to the hour hand.

    Any insight is appreciated.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    Not 100% positive. Nice dial not for the old right sized hunting case for it. Open face case probably match the keyhole location. Google American Waltham for info. Number right for age. A nice antique. Old Brit. style jeweling. The jewel settings look a little odd to me. Their were Swiss made fakes of these model 57 old American Watch Co. Walthams. This might be a good fake. Needs closer examination.
    Last edited by artb; June 19th, 2010 at 18:21.

  3. #3
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    I can't quite make out the serial, but it looks like a legit. '57 keywind. Likely a jobber watch. The serial numbers for jobbers is usually in sequence, but not always. What's written near the bottom edge of the barrel plate?

    Fogg's Patent is a reference to the use of a threaded center pinion. This helps protect the watch if the mainspring breaks (it'll unscrew the pinion instead of breaking all the teeth on the wheel). I doubt you'd find that on a "Swiss Fake".
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  5. #4
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by AbslomRob View Post
    I can't quite make out the serial, but it looks like a legit. '57 keywind. Likely a jobber watch. The serial numbers for jobbers is usually in sequence, but not always. What's written near the bottom edge of the barrel plate?

    Fogg's Patent is a reference to the use of a threaded center pinion. This helps protect the watch if the mainspring breaks (it'll unscrew the pinion instead of breaking all the teeth on the wheel). I doubt you'd find that on a "Swiss Fake".

    The serial number is 771434.

    "Pittsburgh, PA" is what is on the bottom of the barrel plate.

  6. #5
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    According to the information in my copy of the Waltham "Grey Book" your watch is a model 1857 from about 1874.

    It certainly looks re-cased to me.

  7. #6
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    I have seen a few Swiss fakes. Never one with Fogg on it, or a city address. Apparently a real jobber movement in wrong but also American case.

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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    Quote Originally Posted by artb View Post
    I have seen a few Swiss fakes. Never one with Fogg on it, or a city address. Apparently a real jobber movement in wrong but also American case.
    Thanks for all the info. After many pages of searching I found an image of an 1857 with a very close serial number that matched up pretty well. I have not had the chance to try and research the jewelers at all, but I would think I would need to be closer to Pittsburgh to look through city directories and the like.

    The original case would have been hunter. Would there be any other distinguishing characteristics for a case of that age?

  9. #8
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    I guess I am confused. I have avoided key wind and set cases. So I am not sure about case originality. Your dial seemed to me to be rotated to a wrong angle for the open face case. However, maybe it just needs rotating to the proper angle. No stem or lever set to prevent it. The case certainly looks right and thick glass was often added by owners.Maybe then keyhole would be right.
    Last edited by artb; June 20th, 2010 at 19:37.

  10. #9
    Member Erik_H's Avatar
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    The movement needs to be positioned in the case so that the 12 (XII) marking is directly under the bow. If the keyhole then line up the case is fine. The case will by now have additional case screw marks though.
    Erik_H
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  11. #10
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: Fogg's Patent Private Label Movement

    Keywind movments weren't "hunter" or "Openface"; those terms are only relelvent to the movment if it's stem wound. I don't have a lot of keywinds in my collection, but I think they're normally "fixed" into the case by way of a pin that protrudes from the side of the movement, which fits into a appropriate notch on the inside of the case. And since I think different manufactures put that pin in different places, generic keywind cases would have several of these notches. Yours may just have been cased incorrectly. Of course, I also seem to remember that keywinds tended to be factory cased.
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