Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please
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  1. #1
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    Thumbs Up Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    Hi all.

    I was hoping some of you pocket watch enthusiasts might be able to help me shed some light on some very interesting pieces I've come across.
    I picked up this collection at an auction quite cheaply, given the manufacturers (Waltham etc.) I thought there would be more interest in them so I was delighted to win the lot. I am a pocket watch fan but by no means any sort of expert which is why I'm hopeful the good people here might offer some sound advice.
    They were sold 'as is' online so I the seller had little or no info on the watches.

    I purchased 9 watches/fobs in total which came in a nice Oak box.

    I apologise for the length of this post but I thought it best to include as much info as possible. More pictures available if needed please let me know if there's any important aspect which I have not covered which might help with establishing or determining the model / value etc.

    So without further adieu.......

    1. Reliance - Not working - no sounds from movement. The pusher depresses and winds when turned anti-clockwise but there is no movement from the watch hands. The watch face cover twists off. There seems to be some discolouration marks/spots.on the face (greenish colour)
    It says 'Made IN U.S.A' at the 6 hour mark and the name 'RELIANCE' is clear on the centre bit.
    Rear Case Cover has the following engraved on the inside: " TIVOLI MADE IN USA for RELIANCE BY THE Illinois Watch Case Co. Elgin 7463198"
    On the Movement it says 7 JEWELS MADE IN U.S.A BY INGERSOLL WATCH CO.
    The number on the manufacturer is '129034'. Which from researching apparently dates it back to 1892 but please do correct me on this if I'm way off.
    Overall the movement looks to be in good condition.
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    2. Waltham - Unfortunately this has seen better days condition wise. The watch face is open as the glass/cover is missing or broken. It is also missing it's front and rear covers. The watch is working, ticking away nicely and the movement can be seen to be working (dials moving etc.).
    The second clock dial is moving in perfect time and the large hands are also moving and keeping time. There is a crack or line as you can see on the front face where it says 'Waltham' with U.S.A underneath. You can see where the case/cover were attached in the final pic and must have been broken off.
    The pusher winds anti-clockwise as you'd expect and appears to function properly.
    On the Movement it says: "American Waltham, U.S.A TRAVELER". Above this on the outer rim of the rear the number '18631661 is engraved.
    On the movement itself below the larger cog wheel is the number '17509377.
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    3. Wille Freres - This is a pretty watch which again has seen better days.
    Note: I am unable to access the movement on this watch, there doesn't seem to be an opening to access it
    There is no cover on the face so there is no glass to protect the face or hands which can be touched directly.
    The pusher winds quite loudly when you turn it anti-clockwise however there is no sound from the movement and it does not appear to be working.
    The watch hands can be turned and set by depressing the button and winding simultaneously. The pusher seems to be a wound brass type.
    On the rear case it says 'ROSKOPF'
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    4. ???? Manufacturer - This is a very smart looking silver watch in my opinion. However it is also not working, the hour hands can be moved via the button+pusher turning and the pusher ticking sound is normal when turned anti-clockwise.
    On the inside of the rear case the number '25184' is engraved. There is also a random 'T' engraved towards the top (very small) and also a 'l1' it seems engraved at about the 3 o clock position (on inside of rear cover also). There also appears to be some kind of mark or tiny signature scratched in writing but it is very hard to make out and very small.
    On the movement cover, the following is engraved in beautiful writing "Ancre 15 Rubis, L. Matelot David á Liege".
    On the inside of the movement cover the number '25184' is engraved again in the same position but in smaller size.
    I cannot see any engraving or manufacturer name etc. on the movement itself. However on the outer rim there appears to be an '11' or something close to that
    engraved.
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    I have more to upload but I thought that would be enough for now as it's already a large post.

    Would greatly appreciate any help with this. :)

    Phil.

  2. #2
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    OK
    Hi and welcome
    Ingersoll Serial No 129034 dates it to 1906 - that makes more sense
    Illinois Watch case company was an American watch case manufacturer - I think 'Tivoli' will be a grade name for 'guaranteed 20 yrs' i.e the plating will last 'x' time

    WALTHAM
    Serial No '17509377.
    Dates that to 4Q 1908. 17,600.000 started 1909

    WILLE Freres - La Chaux de Fonds
    Freres is sons
    *WILLE Freres* (between 2 stars) was used 1905

    Basically the 'ROSKOPF' patent that used the L Perron pin-pallet escapement (Invented 1798) and a monomatallic balance wheel.
    So a basic watch with a Pin-Palet (sometimes called duplex) escapement.

    Matelot David - Liege
    Could only find Paul Matelot - Liege
    http://www.debeefe.be/klokkenmakers.html

    ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
    Kathleen Pritchard - Swiss Time Keepers

    Hope that helps - Regards
    adam
    Last edited by HOROLOGIST007; July 5th, 2013 at 19:17.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  3. #3
    RTB
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    NO expert here either....Could that be a capital 'M' on the movement of your last posted watch photos, & is there an 'M' or a '3' any-where on the inside of the case ?

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  5. #4
    Vint. Forum Co-Moderator Mirius's Avatar
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    So a basic watch with a Pin-Palet (sometimes called duplex) escapement.
    Just for clarity a duplex escapement is much higher grade than a pin pallet.


  6. #5
    Member radger's Avatar
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirius View Post
    Just for clarity a duplex escapement is much higher grade than a pin pallet.
    Too true.

    A Pin Pallet and a Duplex escapement are entirely different escapements, they are nothing like each other,
    chalk and cheese in fact.

  7. #6
    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirius View Post
    Just for clarity a duplex escapement is much higher grade than a pin pallet.
    Not necessarily. Waterbury made duplex watches that were of roughly the same quality as the typical American pin lever.

    In general, however, European duplex watches tend to be very high grade.
    Mirius likes this.
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
    Member, NAWCC Chapter 149. Vice President and Secretary NAWCC Chapter 140. Member, NAWCC Convention Committee.
    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

  8. #7
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    Thanks for the replies folks.


    Would anyone be able to advise on the possible value of any of these watches? Even if some are perhaps only suitable for parts/repair would they still fetch a decent price on Ebay etc in their current state due to their age / manufacturer?

  9. #8
    Vint. Forum Co-Moderator Mirius's Avatar
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    We don't offer valuations for reasons stated in the sticky. The best we could do is to do a completed auction search on eBay for each - and you could do that yourself!

    However, in general terms, the first three are all basic, low grade watches so you won't become rich!


  10. #9
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    It amazes me OP posts
    3 days later after a number of response -Then they vanished
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  11. #10
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    Re: Help / Advice Required on this Pocket Watch Collection Please

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    It amazes me OP posts
    3 days later after a number of response -Then they vanished
    I didn't vanish. ??

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