Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?
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  1. #1
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    Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    I picked up a Movado recently I believe it's circa 1940. I've searched forums and websites, but I'm simply not knowledgable enough to tell if it's a cal 75, 260, 470, etc.. Any insight would be appreciated I've just recently started looking into vintage watches, I've posted pics below. Thanks in advance

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  2. #2
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    Hi and welcome
    I will try to check the caliber later today.
    I can tell you its cased in a Francois Borgel Case.
    Take a read here. Do read both parts
    François Borgel and Louisa Borgel - inventor and makers of the Borgel watch case
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    Hi and welcome. Nice watch. I would put it a little later than 1940 - based on the shock-protection (which was invented early enough that it could still be 1940 - but is more common later). Also, your watch appears to have once been equipped with a center seconds feature which is now missing - based on the centerwheel pivot.

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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    Looks like what's left of a Movado caliber 157, without the sweep seconds stuff. The fourth-wheel arbor should extend up through the bridge, with a wheel on it for (indirectly) driving the center seconds wheel, with a small bridge to hold the center-seconds wheel and arbor in place. That may have broken off at some point and they just pulled the center seconds stuff out of the movement. Of course, it will work fine without it.

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    It's a 10.25''' version of the larger 11.5''' Movado 75. If you look at a picture of the 75, you'll see that there's more meat on the winding bridge outside the barrel gear. So, this has to be the smaller movement. The 157 came in several variations of sub-seconds, center seconds, date, and so on, but the 157 is the version with center seconds and no date. There wasn't a two-hand version, I don't think.

    The 260 was opposite-hand in configuration, and had the indirect center seconds wheel under the going bridge, so it's not a 260. And the 470 was a sub-second movement only, and the 47x series was a tractor for a series of complications (Calendograf, Celestograf, and Chronograf). But otherwise it's very similar to the 157.

    Rick "a classic Movado movement design" Denney
    Zenith: Captain Chronograph 03.2110.400*; Cartier: Santos 100 XL Concord: Mariner, C1 Big-Date, C1 v.2 Chronograph; Ebel: Chronosport 1134901, Tekton 9137L83*, Type E 9137C41* (*=COSC)
    Ebel: 1911 BTR 9137L73* and 9139L71*, 1911 1120L41*, 1911 Senior 9080241, Brasilias 9120M41 (2), Aquatica 500 9120K61, Classic Hexagon GMT 9301F61, Classic 100 LE 9120R41; Baume & Mercier: Capeland World-Timer
    Heuer: Carrera 1964 Re-Edition CS3110; Maurice Lacroix: Masterpiece MP6439; "Seagull": 1963 Reissue cal. ST19; Seiko: Black Monster SRP307; Poljot: Sturmanskie cal. 3133; Tissot: T-Touch Lew and Huey: Acciona
    Vintage: JLC: ref. 2953, ca. 1946; Longines: Flagship cal 285; Zodiac: SST cal. 86, Aerospace GMT cal. 72; Favre-Leuba: cal. 253; Tianjin: Dong Feng cal. ST5; Elgin: Gr. 152 (1898), Gr. 384 (1919); Ebel: ca. 1962 ref. 9214955
    WUS: ST5 Project Watches (Black and Blue), F72.2014.DG3804 (Gray and Cream); Swatch: Sistem 51 Blue; TNT: Rattrapante cal. Rochat 7750+RAT-1

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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    That's an amazing article, Horo thank you. Shopping for a band for it now, that explains the stylized lugs on the case. Would this then be considered a franken then or is that reserved for mix&match movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    Hi and welcome
    I will try to check the caliber later today.
    I can tell you its cased in a Francois Borgel Case.
    Take a read here. Do read both parts
    François Borgel and Louisa Borgel - inventor and makers of the Borgel watch case

  7. #6
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    Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    Quote Originally Posted by thethomasboy View Post
    That's an amazing article, Horo thank you. Shopping for a band for it now, that explains the stylized lugs on the case. Would this then be considered a franken then or is that reserved for mix&match movements?
    Not a franken just because the case isn't made by Movado. Few watch companies made their own cases in those days (actually, few make their own cases today). Movado would have just bought cases from Borgel to house their watch.

    In America, watches and cases were sold separately. They weren't even on the same pages in the Sears Catalogs. I have two Elgin pocket watches, one in a Crescent case, and the other in a Wadsworth case, and my mid-60's Longines Flagship is in a case made by the Star Watch Case Company of Pennsylvania. Those cases were also used for housing LeCoultre watches sold in the USA. But I have a 1946 JLC in a gold case that bears JLC's own hallmark, so they may have made it themselves. Movado would not have done that.

    Rick "noting the existence of hundreds of separate case makers then and now" Denney
    Last edited by Rdenney; September 26th, 2014 at 06:04.
    Zenith: Captain Chronograph 03.2110.400*; Cartier: Santos 100 XL Concord: Mariner, C1 Big-Date, C1 v.2 Chronograph; Ebel: Chronosport 1134901, Tekton 9137L83*, Type E 9137C41* (*=COSC)
    Ebel: 1911 BTR 9137L73* and 9139L71*, 1911 1120L41*, 1911 Senior 9080241, Brasilias 9120M41 (2), Aquatica 500 9120K61, Classic Hexagon GMT 9301F61, Classic 100 LE 9120R41; Baume & Mercier: Capeland World-Timer
    Heuer: Carrera 1964 Re-Edition CS3110; Maurice Lacroix: Masterpiece MP6439; "Seagull": 1963 Reissue cal. ST19; Seiko: Black Monster SRP307; Poljot: Sturmanskie cal. 3133; Tissot: T-Touch Lew and Huey: Acciona
    Vintage: JLC: ref. 2953, ca. 1946; Longines: Flagship cal 285; Zodiac: SST cal. 86, Aerospace GMT cal. 72; Favre-Leuba: cal. 253; Tianjin: Dong Feng cal. ST5; Elgin: Gr. 152 (1898), Gr. 384 (1919); Ebel: ca. 1962 ref. 9214955
    WUS: ST5 Project Watches (Black and Blue), F72.2014.DG3804 (Gray and Cream); Swatch: Sistem 51 Blue; TNT: Rattrapante cal. Rochat 7750+RAT-1

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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    A well-deserved moniker Rick, I really appreciate your breakdown of the movement and analysis. When you say "what's left" are you referring to the missing second sweep and wheel, and will that affect the reliability? When I purchased it they stated the watch was keeping excellent time and was unadjusted (which in the strictest definition may be true but removing part of the movement is a different kind of adjustment), should I try to return it as an incomplete item? The reseller clearly knows more than I do. I know we don't determine watch value on this forum, but just making sure I didn't get mislead at $150.

    Came with a 90-day service warranty but I want to feel comfortable that it will hold together if I begin using it regularly. I'm learning quite a bit from these forums and related articles. Thank you all again.

    Chris "envious of Rick's multiple nicknames" Thomas

    Quote Originally Posted by Rdenney View Post
    Looks like what's left of a Movado caliber 157, without the sweep seconds stuff. The fourth-wheel arbor should extend up through the bridge, with a wheel on it for (indirectly) driving the center seconds wheel, with a small bridge to hold the center-seconds wheel and arbor in place. That may have broken off at some point and they just pulled the center seconds stuff out of the movement. Of course, it will work fine without it.

    Name:  Movado_159_Ermetoscope.jpg
Views: 424
Size:  23.5 KB

    It's a 10.25''' version of the larger 11.5''' Movado 75. If you look at a picture of the 75, you'll see that there's more meat on the winding bridge outside the barrel gear. So, this has to be the smaller movement. The 157 came in several variations of sub-seconds, center seconds, date, and so on, but the 157 is the version with center seconds and no date. There wasn't a two-hand version, I don't think.

    The 260 was opposite-hand in configuration, and had the indirect center seconds wheel under the going bridge, so it's not a 260. And the 470 was a sub-second movement only, and the 47x series was a tractor for a series of complications (Calendograf, Celestograf, and Chronograf). But otherwise it's very similar to the 157.

    Rick "a classic Movado movement design" Denney
    Last edited by thethomasboy; September 26th, 2014 at 06:18. Reason: Because Rick is awesome

  9. #8
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    Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    No, the missing seconds hand won't affect the operation of the watch. And, yes, that's the part that is missing.

    "Unadjusted" was a common claim for watches imported into the USA, because watches claiming to be adjusted for temperature and positions were subject to a higher import tariff. But these were adjusted according to the standards do the day and their price point.

    I don't think it's an issue at the price you are paying, unless it bugs you. Santa Claus paid a lot more for my vintage 40's JLC that has all the indirect center seconds apparatus, but is still missing the hand. I may try to find a seconds hand; I may not.

    Rick "who would have it serviced immediately, though" Denney
    Last edited by Rdenney; September 26th, 2014 at 06:57.
    Habitant likes this.
    Zenith: Captain Chronograph 03.2110.400*; Cartier: Santos 100 XL Concord: Mariner, C1 Big-Date, C1 v.2 Chronograph; Ebel: Chronosport 1134901, Tekton 9137L83*, Type E 9137C41* (*=COSC)
    Ebel: 1911 BTR 9137L73* and 9139L71*, 1911 1120L41*, 1911 Senior 9080241, Brasilias 9120M41 (2), Aquatica 500 9120K61, Classic Hexagon GMT 9301F61, Classic 100 LE 9120R41; Baume & Mercier: Capeland World-Timer
    Heuer: Carrera 1964 Re-Edition CS3110; Maurice Lacroix: Masterpiece MP6439; "Seagull": 1963 Reissue cal. ST19; Seiko: Black Monster SRP307; Poljot: Sturmanskie cal. 3133; Tissot: T-Touch Lew and Huey: Acciona
    Vintage: JLC: ref. 2953, ca. 1946; Longines: Flagship cal 285; Zodiac: SST cal. 86, Aerospace GMT cal. 72; Favre-Leuba: cal. 253; Tianjin: Dong Feng cal. ST5; Elgin: Gr. 152 (1898), Gr. 384 (1919); Ebel: ca. 1962 ref. 9214955
    WUS: ST5 Project Watches (Black and Blue), F72.2014.DG3804 (Gray and Cream); Swatch: Sistem 51 Blue; TNT: Rattrapante cal. Rochat 7750+RAT-1

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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    I can tell you it is cased in a Francois Borgel Case.

    As was recently pointed out to me, post 1924 these "Borgel" cases are actually "Taubert" cases, since the Tauberts bought the company and patents in that year, although the Taubert family continued using the Borgel "key" logo, Borgel actually had nothing to do with your watch case.
    Just to keep things factual!
    Last edited by bobbee; September 26th, 2014 at 13:49. Reason: quotation
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    Re: Help identifying vintage Movado ca 1940?

    Bob's right (no doubt), but I'll reassure you that the Borgel engraved cases were typical for these Movados – I have a similar vintage in a Borgel case. The serial number on the back should match the 4 digit S/N between the lugs, but highly unlikely that they wouldn't…

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    As was recently pointed out to me, post 1924 these "Borgel" cases are actually "Taubert" cases, since the Tauberts bought the company and patents in that year, although the Taubert family continued using the Borgel "key" logo, Borgel actually had nothing to do with your watch case.
    Just to keep things factual!
    bobbee likes this.

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