NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial
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  1. #1
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    NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Again following on from here
    NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead

    Object type: wristwatch
    Museum accession number: 2013.1.2
    Location: Permanent wristwatch display.
    Brief description: Nickel case, cushion-shaped, manual winding detached lever wristwatch.
    Round black metal Arabic dial with luminous numerals and replacement hands reilluminated in nonradioactive white Luminova, flat subseconds at 6 o’clock, marked “WALTHAM USA”; the chapter ring has 48 stars for 48 states (no Hawaii or Alaska as states yet).
    Case is three-piece with snap on bezel and back cover with spring bar lugs.

    Producer name: American Waltham Watch Company
    Production date: 1929 (note this “style” of watch was introduced in 1917)
    Made in: Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
    Dimensions: 32 millimeters (case)
    Markings:
    Dial: WALTHAM, USA
    Movement: WALTHAM USA, 15 JEWELS, 26,987,685
    Case (inside): ILLINOIS Watch Case Company, Nickel, 699516, 3/0"

    Curator’s comments:
    Normally manufactured by ELGIN (USA), this very rare WALTHAM version is probably a prototype of a “Black Pershing Star Dial” wristwatch. Waltham and Elgin were in competition for mass production of units; we can presume Elgin won the contract, because many Elgin “Pershing Star Dials” can be found today, but only one other Waltham version has appeared, that is cased in a silver Depollier case, with same style dial.

    These “Pershing Dial” watches were named after the great US General “Blackjack” Pershing, one of the most decorated US generals of World War I. The dial’s chapter ring is marked with 48 stars—one for each of the 48 states at that time (no Hawaii or Alaska at that time)

    There are differences between these (possible) Waltham “prototypes” and the Elgin mass-produced version. The Waltham dial is made of metal, whereas Elgin had both metal (white) and later enamel dials in both white and black.

    The first Elgin “star” dial, a white metal dial, appeared circa 1917; this was followed in 1918 by a black enamel dial with a small font. The US Army did not like these smaller numerals, Elgin manufactured one with larger font and “boxed” numerals in 1918—the “large font black star dial.” The WALTHAM dial in this watch is like option #2 above, except it is made of metal not enamel.

    The movement is Waltham, Model 1907, grade 365, 15 jewels, size 3/0, running at 18,000 beats per hour. The serial number 26,987,685 dates it to 1929, but these styles of watches were introduced first in 1917.

    Adam R. Harris
    Guest Wristwatch Curator 2014
    ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: Stan Czubernat – star dials
    Last edited by Marrick; September 30th, 2014 at 14:28. Reason: Original post restored - thread closed
    James A likes this.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

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    and
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    Adam

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Screw on bezel?
    Sdasurrey likes this.

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Screw on bezel?
    Well spotted
    Corrected
    Thank You
    A
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Adam,

    "but no other Waltham version has appeared."

    have you forgotten about mine? 1927 15J - silver semi-hermetic J. Depollier case.

    Both you and Stan have seen it before - clearly printed using the same die as Stan pointed out.

    Last edited by trim; September 29th, 2014 at 21:19.
    bobbee, radger, James A and 2 others like this.

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Quote Originally Posted by trim View Post
    Adam,

    "but no other Waltham version has appeared."

    have you forgotten about mine - 1927? In its silver semi-hermetic J. Depollier case.

    Both you and Stan have seen it before - clearly printed using the same die as Stan pointed out.

    hi.
    Not only must I have forgotten, I still can not remember it.
    but that is great that you posted it here.
    I am very pleased we could learn that another (at least) exists
    I will update my comment
    Thanks again
    Adam
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Updated
    trim
    If you PM me your full name I will add you in acknowledgements
    A
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    I think the reasoning behind this (these) watch's origins is flawed..

    If Elgin and Waltham were in competition to produce this style watch (Pershing star), and Elgin "won", how come these two watches date from TWELVE AND TEN YEARS AFTER Elgin first started producing this style dial?
    I don't know about anyone else's thoughts but mine tell me this is impossible.
    What now?
    Sdasurrey and radger like this.

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    Curator’s comments:
    Normally manufactured by ELGIN (USA), this very rare WALTHAM version is probably an original prototype of a “Black Pershing Star Dial” wristwatch. Waltham and Elgin were in competition for mass production of units; we can presume Elgin won the contract, because many Elgin “Pershing Star Dials” can be found today, but only one other Waltham version has appeared, that is cased in a silver Depollier case, with same style dial.


    There are differences between this Waltham “prototype” and the Elgin mass-produced version.

    Adam R. Harris
    Guest Wristwatch Curator 2014
    ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: Stan Czubernat – star dials
    That is great that you updated your description to include mention of Trims two years earlier watch with this
    same dial.
    In your description you still mention, twice, that this dial is a rare prototype..well since Trims watch is two years earlier
    than the museum watch then his watch has more chance of being the prototype, if prototypes even come into the equation...
    Just saying.
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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    That is great that you updated your description to include mention of Trims two years earlier watch with this
    same dial.
    In your description you still mention, twice, that this dial is a rare prototype..well since Trims watch is two years earlier
    than the museum watch then his watch has more chance of being the prototype, if prototypes even come into the equation...
    Just saying.
    valid point Radger
    so I ammended to
    "these (possible)"

    Thanks your thoughts
    adam
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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    Re: NAWCC 2014, The New Task Ahead - Waltham Pershing "Star" Dial

    Normally manufactured by ELGIN (USA), this very rare WALTHAM version is probably an original prototype of a “Black Pershing Star Dial” wristwatch. Waltham and Elgin were in competition for mass production of units; we can presume Elgin won the contract, because many Elgin “Pershing Star Dials” can be found today, but only one other Waltham version has appeared, that is cased in a silver Depollier case, with same style dial.
    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    That is great that you updated your description to include mention of Trims two years earlier watch with this
    same dial.
    In your description you still mention, twice, that this dial is a rare prototype..well since Trims watch is two years earlier
    than the museum watch then his watch has more chance of being the prototype, if prototypes even come into the equation...
    Just saying.
    I should think it impossible to have a "prototype" of a 10 year old design.
    These watches must be copies of Elgin's original design, and may have been released with permission from Elgin. Or?

    It seems like pure conjecture about the "Elgin v. Waltham competition", as I can find no proof of this, only rumours.
    radger and Sdasurrey like this.

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