NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue
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  1. #1
    Member Sdasurrey's Avatar
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    NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    All - starting a new and general thread to express concern on how we all share information objectively to the betterment of watches, WUS Objective Review and historical documentation is certainly not what what any of us hoped for when the NAWCC 'shared documentation' project was started.

    Certainly I for one as a 'vintage newbie' have very little if anything to contribute on these watches under discussion relative to the Substantial experience and expertise of the long time members on the vintage forum. But I find myself needing to make a broad statement in a new thread about sharing expertise and information - now that two of the 4 or 5 dedicated threads for this subject have been closed.

    Note to Mods - I am not making any specific comments about these watches or the individuals involved so hopefully therefore, this doesn't violate any requests to not carry on specific watch discussions in a new thread.

    The general gist of my comments are as follows - the original objective established for the NAWCC review was to share information, bring expertise to bear and shed a stronger light on older historical time pieces.

    Another way to describe this process is as a 'dialectic' - a back and forth process of sharing expertise to achieve a better shared understanding.

    A number of long time, very experienced vintage members have sought to bring their experiences to bear in this process - without much success and conflicts have developed where objectively, there shouldn't be any.

    Enough on philosophy - to all involved - please allow expertise and facts regardless of whether they dispel 'net myths' or other 'subjective views' to be brought to bear to make this dialectic successful - judged by historical watch descriptions that are objective and improved through this dialogue.

    If we keep having to have threads closed - then this dialectic becomes a race to 'the bottom' - which I personally don't see as the objective.

    Sorry to philosophise - My 2 pence - Scott


    EDIT - 'Dialogue' should be the last word in the thread title...

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    Last edited by Sdasurrey; September 30th, 2014 at 18:18.
    Paleotime, Emre, radger and 4 others like this.
    'Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.' -- Slim Pickens as Major T.J. 'King' Kong, Dr. Strangelove 1964

    __________________________________________________ __________
    My 'Show-Piece' - Zenith El Primero 'Red' Captain Ltd Edition #255/500
    My 'Grails' - 1920s & 1930s 18ct Gold Eberhard Monopusher chronos - with a Valjioux 65 movements
    My 'Fav' 1917 Silver Moser Trench
    Various vintage watches - Trench-style, Art Deco & 20s-50s chronographs - especially Eberhard & Longines

  2. #2
    Member Emre's Avatar
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    Re: NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    I for one,consider those topics as a sign of self confidence.

    Volunteering for a museum and creating threads to share with enthusiasts and seeking possible input is beneficial for all of us,unless things get out of track and issues evolve towards personal matter.When creating threads,it's absolutely normal and expectable,others not to share the exact opinion and information as you do.Your statements might be challenged.This exact point would increase the quality of information which we all are looking for,no?

    I also favour backed up and correct information - which evolves with new discoveries though.There are so many things yet to be researched and surfaced why turn this joy to locked threads ( this is self-critique for WUS members ).

    My understanding in making statements is,you are obliged to prove it and/or convince the people involved in that topic with evidence.

    At the other hand absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence,it just has to be admitted.
    Last edited by Emre; September 30th, 2014 at 18:03.
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  3. #3
    Member radger's Avatar
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    Re: NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    Hi Sdasurrey,

    We can only hope for objectivity, honesty and truth.
    Forums such as this should support that ideal, I would hope, but they certainly can't enforce it,
    and so the BS proliferates.
    Sdasurrey, bobbee, Emre and 1 others like this.

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  5. #4
    Member Sdasurrey's Avatar
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    Re: NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by radger View Post
    Hi Sdasurrey,

    We can only hope for objectivity, honesty and truth.
    Forums such as this should support that ideal, I would hope, but they certainly can't enforce it,
    and so the BS proliferates.
    Radger - agree - I'm just personally trying to appeal to the 'greater good' that in the end is to everyone's benefit !

    If not, it's not a good 'commercial' for WUS more broadly or Vintage more narrowly - I hope after having multiple threads closed Everyone sees the importance of this, cheers - Scott


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    bobbee, radger and Emre like this.
    'Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.' -- Slim Pickens as Major T.J. 'King' Kong, Dr. Strangelove 1964

    __________________________________________________ __________
    My 'Show-Piece' - Zenith El Primero 'Red' Captain Ltd Edition #255/500
    My 'Grails' - 1920s & 1930s 18ct Gold Eberhard Monopusher chronos - with a Valjioux 65 movements
    My 'Fav' 1917 Silver Moser Trench
    Various vintage watches - Trench-style, Art Deco & 20s-50s chronographs - especially Eberhard & Longines

  6. #5
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    You're always going to run into a problem with "discussing" things in a forum, if only because of the limitations of the forum approach; people post a multitude of ideas, others respond to specific parts, and others still try to link the specific responses back to other repsonses, etc. So after while, you just have to stop and regroup, and then maybe start a new thread.

    It doesn't help that some posters may have an ax to grind, other posters may be unreasonably defensive, and many have trouble properly articulating what they mean to say, and wind up suggesting or implying things far removed from their intent. All part of the territory.

    That said, this forum tends to be fairly open and intelligent, and while yes it does become necessary to close some threads, you can't pretend that those threads didn't present valid information that the participants can take forward into other discussions. So the net result is still a benefit.
    My growing collection of "affordable" vintages: http://www.abslomrob.com

  7. #6
    Member Sdasurrey's Avatar
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    NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    Rob - I wouldn't disagree with anything you said - it is net positive - my main point is kind of embedded in your second paragraph - if experienced vintage collectors have valid, objective points to bring - those points should be respected and not lost in the 'unreasonably defensive' aspects of the dialectic that detract rather than add 'positivity' - I do also agree it's a rather unique setting for this back and forth discussion and therefore not prefect but 'okay' - I would say external, ie moderator 'forced' closure is indicative of a kind of 'thread or 'market failure' and therefore a symptom of problems ....Thanks...SDA


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    bobbee, radger and Tomcat1960 like this.
    'Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.' -- Slim Pickens as Major T.J. 'King' Kong, Dr. Strangelove 1964

    __________________________________________________ __________
    My 'Show-Piece' - Zenith El Primero 'Red' Captain Ltd Edition #255/500
    My 'Grails' - 1920s & 1930s 18ct Gold Eberhard Monopusher chronos - with a Valjioux 65 movements
    My 'Fav' 1917 Silver Moser Trench
    Various vintage watches - Trench-style, Art Deco & 20s-50s chronographs - especially Eberhard & Longines

  8. #7
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Sdasurrey View Post
    I would say external, ie moderator 'forced' closure is indicative of a kind of 'thread or 'market failure' and therefore a symptom of problems ....Thanks...SDA
    It's Goodwin's law, in it's pure form. The longer any discussion goes on, it becomes increasingly likely that two of the proponents will (due usually to a differences in understanding), distill the discussion down to a set of mutually exclusive truths. At that point, the discussion is over, because they're both right and both wrong. Closing the thread is the only way to prevent the inevitable .... analogy.

    edit: Sigh. I hate self-editing forum software. Insert WW2 era German political party name above. Familiarize yourself with Goodwin's Law first so that you aren't offended.
    Last edited by AbslomRob; September 30th, 2014 at 22:38.
    My growing collection of "affordable" vintages: http://www.abslomrob.com

  9. #8
    Member Sdasurrey's Avatar
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    NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    Rob - interesting - I guess I don't participate in very many thread-based discussions so hadn't heard of this quasi variant of ad hominem arguments. I guess we could have a broader discussion here on whether the innate nature of 'man' is net positive or negative ! But I won't go down that road !

    Okay so I agree 'market or thread failure' requires regulatory ' (mods) intervention in some cases, but I guess in this type of setting 'market' solutions aren't possible.

    Switching completely away from whether a watch is from 1919 or the sky is blue, given I started this thread, if you haven't read 'Flash Boys' it's a quite good discussion of front running stock traded using VERY small time increments in HFT - it's interesting because instead of a regulatory solution to this market failure problem of some traders ('flash boys') trading ahead of others using technology this Canadian equity trader 'hero' set up a new exchange ('IEX') that forces buy/sell orders to arrive at the same time to prevent HFT arbitrage - a nice market solution potentially to a 'market failure' - cheers ! Scott


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    Last edited by Sdasurrey; September 30th, 2014 at 22:57.
    'Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.' -- Slim Pickens as Major T.J. 'King' Kong, Dr. Strangelove 1964

    __________________________________________________ __________
    My 'Show-Piece' - Zenith El Primero 'Red' Captain Ltd Edition #255/500
    My 'Grails' - 1920s & 1930s 18ct Gold Eberhard Monopusher chronos - with a Valjioux 65 movements
    My 'Fav' 1917 Silver Moser Trench
    Various vintage watches - Trench-style, Art Deco & 20s-50s chronographs - especially Eberhard & Longines

  10. #9
    Member Sdasurrey's Avatar
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    NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by AbslomRob View Post

    edit: Sigh. I hate self-editing forum software. Insert WW2 era German political party name above. Familiarize yourself with Goodwin's Law first so that you aren't offended.
    Way ahead of you - went right to the wiki definition - NO offence taken whatsoever ! I'm happy to admit I don't know something having not heard of it before ! Cheers, Scott

    Checked your blog BTW for the first time - lots of details !


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    Last edited by Sdasurrey; September 30th, 2014 at 23:09.
    bobbee likes this.
    'Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.' -- Slim Pickens as Major T.J. 'King' Kong, Dr. Strangelove 1964

    __________________________________________________ __________
    My 'Show-Piece' - Zenith El Primero 'Red' Captain Ltd Edition #255/500
    My 'Grails' - 1920s & 1930s 18ct Gold Eberhard Monopusher chronos - with a Valjioux 65 movements
    My 'Fav' 1917 Silver Moser Trench
    Various vintage watches - Trench-style, Art Deco & 20s-50s chronographs - especially Eberhard & Longines

  11. #10
    Member Eeeb's Avatar
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    Re: NAWCC 'Dialectic' - Open Comment on a Process and Benefits of Objective Dialogue

    These matters are still under active discussion in the Moderator Forum. That is a process that grinds slowly as we strive for consensus.

    But I am glad to see members are as distressed as I am. The NAWCC was expecting to get some useful feedback. It has. But the noise from the anti-claque has infringed on useful discussion. In these situations it would be normal for Moderators to act. But we are lacking a consensus.

    I suspect the root of the problem is WUS Rules and Regulations were drawn up to handle the normal 'I have this watch' 'Ugly watch' 'How dare you!' 'You cur!' kinds of posts. Serious discussions require a higher level of civility than we have seen in some of these NAWCC threads and the only mechanism allowed by current interpretations of the rules is closing the thread.

    As a consequence the threads are on a hiatus. I am hoping that ends but I am beginning to fear otherwise. We shall see...

    I might propose that they move to the NAWCC Forum and that forum's original post pre-approval process be reinstated. Ben and I will then be recognized Gods and will be able to prevent it from happening again But I would rather not go this far.
    busmatt and Sdasurrey like this.
    "Forever is composed of nows." - Emily Dickinson

    "The watch has to be surrounded by a history.
    You need more than just a great design. You need to create an atmosphere around the product.
    Who is the company behind it? Why are they using this material?
    People need to be able to identify the watch with themselves. It's based on emotion." - Ralph Furter

    ...that's just my opinion and I've been wrong before and will be again and might be now!

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