A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

Thread: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

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  1. #1
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    A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    Got yesterday because of ruby jewel marking, diamond cap and gold screws. Nothing special just looks nice to me.

    Not honest marking; 21 ruby jewels is not.
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    Last edited by artb; January 21st, 2012 at 21:36.

  2. #2
    Member radger's Avatar
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    Movement looks pristine, very nice indeed.

  3. #3
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    3o hours later when photo made still unstoppable. Reason: Came from Bill Tapp a fine watchmaker authentic restorer. Charged me only usual Ebay price with his fine work included. A friendly favor. Am long term customer.

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    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    I have always especially like the "Ruby jewels" Vanguards.

    IMO, any watch serviced by Bill Tapp is worth having!
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
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    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

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    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    Are you sure the 21 jewel marking is wrong? I thought these had two jewels in the barrel...
    My growing collection of "affordable" vintages: http://www.abslomrob.com

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    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    I think that Art was referring to the fact that some of the jewels are diamonds and not rubies. In this case, it's actually 19 ruby jewels since the two balance endstones are diamonds.

    Later 21j 92s(as well as 08s) did use the jeweled mainwheel. Earlier ones, including this one, had a capped pallet arbor. I think that the change over happened sometime around 11 million.

    Offhand, I don't think that there are any '92 Vanguards that don't have a capped pallet arbor since by the Waltham had switched over to the jeweled mainwheel, all of the '92 Vanguards were 23 jewels. I'm on my way out the door now, but will look at the records and see if I can make heads or tails of this.

    The 21j '92 most commonly seen with the jeweled mainwheel was the 845, which was a fairly addition to the line-up. I believe 92 Crescent Sts. are also occasionally seen with a jeweled mainwheel, but my experience is that these are less common than the capped pallet variant.
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
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    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

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    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    For reference:
    Capped pallet 21j Crescent St.




    Jeweled mainwheel 21j 845

    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
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    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

  9. #8
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben_hutcherson View Post
    I think that Art was referring to the fact that some of the jewels are diamonds and not rubies. In this case, it's actually 19 ruby jewels since the two balance endstones are diamonds. Later 21j 92s(as well as 08s) did use the jeweled mainwheel. Earlier ones, including this one, had a capped pallet arbor. I think that the change over happened sometime around 11 million. Offhand, I don't think that there are any '92 Vanguards that don't have a capped pallet arbor since by the Waltham had switched over to the jeweled mainwheel, all of the '92 Vanguards were 23 jewels. I'm on my way out the door now, but will look at the records and see if I can make heads or tails of this. The 21j '92 most commonly seen with the jeweled mainwheel was the 845, which was a fairly addition to the line-up. I believe 92 Crescent Sts. are also occasionally seen with a jeweled mainwheel, but my experience is that these are less common than the capped pallet variant.
    Ben is very patient with my ignorance and I very much appreciate his detailed knowledge freely given. Surprised at variety of detail defferences in these 92 models. Another 92 that was improved by Bill Tapp.
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    Last edited by artb; January 14th, 2012 at 21:01.

  10. #9
    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    Art,

    I just hope that what information I can offer is helpful, and I try to offer it when I have information to add.

    In regard to my earlier comment about jeweled mainwheels on 21j Vanguards-as I said, I had previously understood this to occur around 11 million. I found another reference which stated 1903, which, depending on the serial number reference, would correspond to roughly 11 million or 12 million. Of course, the standard caveats that watches were not necessarily finished in serial number order, and changes were likely depending upon material availability apply. Careful observation of watches in the 11 million to 12 million range would likely reveal additional information.

    So, with this in mind, I went through the ledgers and totaled up all of the runs of 21j Vanguards which were produced after 11 million.

    There were a total of 34,759 21j 1892 Vanguards produced according to the factory records/gray book.

    Of these, 15,178 were finished after 11,000,000. These are all watches which have the possibility for having been finished with the jeweled mainwheel.

    There were 2800 21j Vanguards produced in the 11,000,000 block, meaning that if we make an assumption(probably not valid) that the production of jeweled mainwheel 21js started at 12,000,000, the actual number produced was 12,378.

    In actuality the number is probably somewhere between the two.

    These numbers are also overlooking two unknowns. The first is that some number of 17 jewel Vanguards were known to have been finished with 21j. All of these would have had capped pallet arbors.

    The second is that some number of 21j Vanguards were known to have been finished with 23 jewels according to demand. A 23j Vanguard will, of course, have both capped pallets and a jeweled mainwheel.

    So, just some numbers to keep things in perspective.
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
    Member, NAWCC Chapter 149. Vice President and Secretary NAWCC Chapter 140. Member, NAWCC Convention Committee.
    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

  11. #10
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    Re: A nice Waltham model 92 Vanguard

    Art, very nice. The model 1892s are the nicest size 18 Walthams IMHO. But how can you stand to handle a man sized watch after all your fancy little size 12 and size 10 watches.

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