Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

Thread: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

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  1. #1
    Member DaBaeker's Avatar
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    Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.




    I used to think this was a kind of garish seiko chrono that did not get much wrist time. Its exceptionally quality was its accuracy but I did not appreciate its looks. I originlly bought it because I liked the internal rotating bzl which I thought was great for the price I paid.

    fast forward a few years to now and I learn that not only is there a following for the watch but it has its own name after Wm Pogues '73 skylab mission where he brought his favorite non-sanctioned by NASA seio chronograph with him because he "found it useful for timing burns". He also said he favoured the Seiko over his Rolex which he acquired in '57 while flying for the Thunderbirds.

    So-now that this watch turns out to have some chops I decided to have it serviced and cleaned up. I always intended to put this up for sale along with a dozen or so other chronographs that dont see much daylight. But now I question whether its not a watch worth hanging onto for a while?

    Im not a space 'freak' but do like the association with NASA however unofficial it may be. And I alos know quite a few people collect these so named 'pogues' for this reason alone. My question is: Is there reason to believe these will rise in value any faster than other 70s Seiko chronographs? I don't belive these sell for that much more than other comparable watches.

    Should they be considered a great bargain now? Will they continue to slowly rise in value? Are there just too many out there to ever make them rare enough? And so on... Lots of questions but I'm rally just seeking out opinions on whether it would be foolish to sell at todays price of between $100-$250 which seems to be about avg.? thnks
    :ROLEX OMEGA LONGiNES ♦ SEIKO Aquadive ♦ ELGIN ♦ hamilton O&W imexZodiac......

  2. #2
    Member Ray916MN's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    I'm in the market for one right now as my recent acquisition of a 105.012 Speedmaster has got me thinking I should build a space watch collection.

    In my opinion, they are not great bargains yet. They will slowly gain in value as long as the far east Ebay vendors continue to churn out good looking franken versions of these watches. Once the franken watches are done, the price will start to rise and original non franken watches will likely pop significantly. Right now the supply of frankens is masking the scarcity of original watches and artificially holding the market price down.

    If you want to sell, PM me.

  3. #3
    Member DaBaeker's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    Hmm. Your post got me to thinking that mine may be a franken of sorts. Bought just over three years ago it came with a NOS seiko factory dial and outer blue/red bezel installed. The inner bzl has some age to it and it also came with a still sealed white inner bezel which I thought I would have put on next time it goes in. Why white? I saw pictures of Wm Pogues and it looked like his had the white inner bezel. But if I sold I would disclose all this and no doubt would be less interesting to some. Still not sure this constitutes a real franken though its not 100% original for sure.

    I think you make a good point about value though I did not realize these were being 'fake/frankened'' in volumn in asia (not that I'm surprised) I just recently got 're-acquainted' with this watch after reading another 'NASA post. Never knew it was anything of particular interest til then. As for not being a 'great bargain" I take it you mean the $100-$200 that people are paying now is not such a great price for a franken? What then [iyo] is a reasonable price for a 100% original pogue with some wear but still in excellent shape? Now that my interest is peaked I will probably keep a look out-not so much to buy-but just as part of the fun involved with watching
    Last edited by DaBaeker; December 22nd, 2010 at 01:54.
    :ROLEX OMEGA LONGiNES ♦ SEIKO Aquadive ♦ ELGIN ♦ hamilton O&W imexZodiac......

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  5. #4
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    The majority of the Seiko 70's chronographs are frankens. There are 2 or 3 eBay sellers from the Pacific rim that offer them by the dozens. I'd love to have a 6139 - a bullhead preferably - but after looking at all the cobbled together watches with aftermarket dials/bezels/bracelets I lost interest.

  6. #5
    Member Ray916MN's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    All original Pogue in good condition should be worth around $500.

    The issue is there are still original watches showing up on Ebay for much lower. Owners don't get that those beautiful looking watches that they are competing to sell against are frankens, so they let them go cheap since they aren't nearly as perfect looking as the franken watches. It is also getting tougher and tougher to identify a franken. Used to be the far east guys bought up boat loads of watches and made working watches out them with original parts. The fly in the ointment was often the assemblage of parts was not entirely correct for a given model. Over time OEM parts have gotten tough to come by, so repro bezels, internal bezels, crowns, crystals, hands and bands have become widely available making it even harder to discern originality. For example, AFAIK, the original internal bezel on your watch was yellow, but over time they faded to grey. The repro folks make them in both colors....

    So an all original Pogue is worth $500 to the right collector only if the watch has a confirmed path of originality.

  7. #6
    Member DaBaeker's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray916MN View Post
    All original Pogue in good condition should be worth around $500.

    The issue is there are still original watches showing up on Ebay for much lower. Owners don't get that those beautiful looking watches that they are competing to sell against are frankens, so they let them go cheap since they aren't nearly as perfect looking as the franken watches. It is also getting tougher and tougher to identify a franken. Used to be the far east guys bought up boat loads of watches and made working watches out them with original parts. The fly in the ointment was often the assemblage of parts was not entirely correct for a given model. Over time OEM parts have gotten tough to come by, so repro bezels, internal bezels, crowns, crystals, hands and bands have become widely available making it even harder to discern originality. For example, AFAIK, the original internal bezel on your watch was yellow, but over time they faded to grey. The repro folks make them in both colors....

    So an all original Pogue is worth $500 to the right collector only if the watch has a confirmed path of originality.
    What I remember now is I bought this from some american guy but I think he answered me that he bought it second hand. So I'm guessing I have exactly what your talking about-a non original pogue. I think I paid $90 so I can live with myself but now it makes sense. Before I knew about the astronaut connection it wouldnt have occured to me to think this was a highly franken'd watch. Even with the disclosure that the dial/outer bzl are aftermarket I bet I would still make a little bit if I sold. Too bad-Now my interest is greater in owning one-Just not the one I own
    :ROLEX OMEGA LONGiNES ♦ SEIKO Aquadive ♦ ELGIN ♦ hamilton O&W imexZodiac......

  8. #7
    Member Niccolo's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    @DaBaeker If you want a good opinion on your watch you should post in the Seiko Citizen sub forum on WUS. The experts there should be able to tell you if it's franken or not.

    @Ray916MN I think your theory about the value of original Pogues going up once the franken pogues are gone is wrong. First of all it seems the franken builders (especially the ones in the Philippines) have an unlimited supply of vintage watches. If it's a popular model, or even remotely popular, new aftermarket dials/crowns/crystals/hands etc are very easy to source to help 'restore' even the most battered vintage to a sellable condition.

    I'll use the most popular Seiko vintage as an example, the 6309-7040. A fully 'restored', buffed, and serviced watch from a Philippines seller with a good reputation will sell for $100 - $130 on eBay. These sellers are actually very honest, and they will list all the components of the watch an tell you if they're original, original and buffed, NOS, or aftermarket. However if a real fully original 6309-7040 pops up on eBay they alway sell for $500 or more. There are numerous 'buying guides' (https://forums.watchuseek.com/f281/ho...de-140799.html) on the forum describing in minute detail how to recognise a genuine watch, so a Seiko fan looking for a 6309 or other popular vintage in original form will have an easy life.

    In Seiko watch collecting there is a phenomenon called 'modding', where a collector will buy a brand new Seiko, and mod it with aftermarket parts (bracelet, dial, hands, crown, crystal, bezel, bezel insert, sometimes even the movement is swapped...) If one of these modded Seikos is sold used it will usually fetch more money than the brand new original model. To use vintage forum language, for Seiko fans having a franken watch with fantasy parts is desirable!

    This also happens with vintage Seiko watches. Going back to the 6309 7040 example, for some collectors it's desirable to buy a 'restored' watch with a dial and hands from a different model (usually the 6105), or completely fantasy dials and hands. These again sell for $100 to $130 on eBay.

    The latest craze is to have a 'restored' 6309 7040 with a hybrid 6309/6306/6117 movement! They use the 6309 movement as a base because it's very common, use NOS parts from the Japanese Domestic Market 6306 movement (the movement itself is rare, but the NOS parts are not). Finally they remove the Day wheel from the 6309 and put some components from the 6117 GMT movement. The result is a 6309 without Day, but with added hacking from the 6306, and added functional GMT hand from the 6117! These are selling for $180 to $230 on eBay, and are still a rare mod.

    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/diy-...-a-466199.html
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/pos...3D-246526.html
    Seiko & Citizen Forum: My new Sei-Master GMT (or a tale of 2 Noahs)
    http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=432.0
    Cataratas do Iguaçu, Brazil => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9KyiwSscdo

  9. #8
    Moderator sixtysix's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    I think this is all original, seemed to pass all the tests in the buying guide. Date code make it 1974, IIRC. I think any mechanical chronos from this era will go up in value, if you know yours is original and keep it i think they will only go up... The original bracelet was too short for me so I bought a solid after market one so I could wear it. These are easy to spot at pawn shops, with the colors......I gave $85 for this one.





    Later, Gary




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    Member NAWCC, National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors

  10. #9
    Member Ray916MN's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niccolo View Post
    @DaBaeker If you want a good opinion on your watch you should post in the Seiko Citizen sub forum on WUS. The experts there should be able to tell you if it's franken or not.

    @Ray916MN I think your theory about the value of original Pogues going up once the franken pogues are gone is wrong. First of all it seems the franken builders (especially the ones in the Philippines) have an unlimited supply of vintage watches. If it's a popular model, or even remotely popular, new aftermarket dials/crowns/crystals/hands etc are very easy to source to help 'restore' even the most battered vintage to a sellable condition.

    I'll use the most popular Seiko vintage as an example, the 6309-7040. A fully 'restored', buffed, and serviced watch from a Philippines seller with a good reputation will sell for $100 - $130 on eBay. These sellers are actually very honest, and they will list all the components of the watch an tell you if they're original, original and buffed, NOS, or aftermarket. However if a real fully original 6309-7040 pops up on eBay they alway sell for $500 or more. There are numerous 'buying guides' (https://forums.watchuseek.com/f281/ho...de-140799.html) on the forum describing in minute detail how to recognise a genuine watch, so a Seiko fan looking for a 6309 or other popular vintage in original form will have an easy life.

    In Seiko watch collecting there is a phenomenon called 'modding', where a collector will buy a brand new Seiko, and mod it with aftermarket parts (bracelet, dial, hands, crown, crystal, bezel, bezel insert, sometimes even the movement is swapped...) If one of these modded Seikos is sold used it will usually fetch more money than the brand new original model. To use vintage forum language, for Seiko fans having a franken watch with fantasy parts is desirable!

    This also happens with vintage Seiko watches. Going back to the 6309 7040 example, for some collectors it's desirable to buy a 'restored' watch with a dial and hands from a different model (usually the 6105), or completely fantasy dials and hands. These again sell for $100 to $130 on eBay.

    The latest craze is to have a 'restored' 6309 7040 with a hybrid 6309/6306/6117 movement! They use the 6309 movement as a base because it's very common, use NOS parts from the Japanese Domestic Market 6306 movement (the movement itself is rare, but the NOS parts are not). Finally they remove the Day wheel from the 6309 and put some components from the 6117 GMT movement. The result is a 6309 without Day, but with added hacking from the 6306, and added functional GMT hand from the 6117! These are selling for $180 to $230 on eBay, and are still a rare mod.

    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/diy-...-a-466199.html
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f21/pos...3D-246526.html
    Seiko & Citizen Forum: My new Sei-Master GMT (or a tale of 2 Noahs)
    http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php?topic=432.0
    You might be right about 6309s but look back and you'll see the 6139 was never a modder watch. Look at the SCWF archives and you'll see that for years, the 6139 discussion has been focused on originality and discerning frankens. Just like the 6138s, 7015/6/7, Grand Seikos, King Seikos, Lord Marvels and 6159s have never been modder watches. Just like looking forward I don't think we're going to see 6S37/8, 8R28 automatic movement chrono nor spring drive chronos ever become modding fodder. I don't think the popularity of modding some Seikos has anything to do with 6139 values.

  11. #10
    Member Niccolo's Avatar
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    Re: Opinions on future value(not price) of Seiko Pogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray916MN View Post
    You might be right about 6309s but look back and you'll see the 6139 was never a modder watch. Look at the SCWF archives and you'll see that for years, the 6139 discussion has been focused on originality and discerning frankens. Just like the 6138s, 7015/6/7, Grand Seikos, King Seikos, Lord Marvels and 6159s have never been modder watches. Just like looking forward I don't think we're going to see 6S37/8, 8R28 automatic movement chrono nor spring drive chronos ever become modding fodder. I don't think the popularity of modding some Seikos has anything to do with 6139 values.
    You're right, it's the divers and the Seiko 5's that are usually modded. But I've seen aftermarket parts (both original-look-alike and fantasy) for both Seiko Bullhead (6138) and Citizen Bullhead chronos. I also found fantasy dials and chapter rings for the Seiko 6139. And people enquire about aftermarket parts for Kinetic watches, but these don't exist yet.
    Last edited by Niccolo; December 22nd, 2010 at 04:31.
    Cataratas do Iguaçu, Brazil => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9KyiwSscdo

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