Please help id this pocket watch
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  1. #1
    Member Old Navman's Avatar
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    Please help id this pocket watch

    Hi All,
    I have this "no name" pocket watch - 42mm diam, in silver case marked F0.800P (possibly Francis Pages, London) I'm trying to find out what make/cal is the movement inside the watch? aside that it is 3 finger bridge probably from the early 1900's. Tks
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  2. #2
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Far away from England. The capercaillie (that bird in the triangle) is the Swiss Silver Mark, standard there (as marked) 0.800 and not 0.925 like in England.

    The rest is guessing:

    F and P could stand for Franz Peter, founder of Optima ( F. Peter, Fabrique D'Horlogerie Optima), later taken over by Albert Grossenbacher. That would date the watch (case) after WWI (presumambly 1923) and before 1930.

    Can you give us the size of the movement (inside without the case).

    Nice watch by the way. Like the clean movement and the finish. You should be able to polish the case to perfection (if you want to do this). The stains on the inside of the back cover will come off nicely.

    My can of Cape Cod polish is crying behind me on the shelf to get all over this watch...
    Last edited by Border-Reiver; October 24th, 2018 at 22:57.

  3. #3
    Member pithy's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Border-Reiver View Post
    . . . . The stains on the inside of the back cover will come off nicely.

    My can of Cape Cod polish is crying behind me on the shelf to get all over this watch...
    When you have more actual experience you'll be better prepared to make much less potentially catastrophic recommendations.

    OP: That interior finish on the caseback is easily degraded with abrasive processes even as seemingly benign as a fine polishing cloth.

    The first step is to determine whether the coloration is a stain(residue) or electrochemical. Discrete application of organic and inorganic solvents will determine this. If the coloration is soluble in a particular medium utilize the same in the ultrasonic bath and analyse the results. Repeat and modify as is necessary. If the coloration is indeed oxidation utilize an electrolytic medium in the ultrasonic. If the coloration is persistent mask the exterior of the case and apply the most passive of galvanic treatments to the interior stopping frequently to inspect the progress of removal.

    When the coloration is removed consider the depth of the patterning and the cost versus benefit ratio of applying abrasive.
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    Courtesy of ULF.

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  5. #4
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by pithy View Post
    When you have more actual experience you'll be better prepared to make much less potentially catastrophic recommendations.

    OP: That interior finish on the caseback is easily degraded with abrasive processes even as seemingly benign as a fine polishing cloth.

    The first step is to determine whether the coloration is a stain(residue) or electrochemical. Discrete application of organic and inorganic solvents will determine this. If the coloration is soluble in a particular medium utilize the same in the ultrasonic bath and analyse the results. Repeat and modify as is necessary. If the coloration is indeed oxidation utilize an electrolytic medium in the ultrasonic. If the coloration is persistent mask the exterior of the case and apply the most passive of galvanic treatments to the interior stopping frequently to inspect the progress of removal.

    When the coloration is removed consider the depth of the patterning and the cost versus benefit ratio of applying abrasive.
    What a lineup of impressive words! Perhaps you might also have some answers to the real questions asked: Dating, hallmarks etc. Any clue about the movement?
    Last edited by Border-Reiver; October 24th, 2018 at 22:55.
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  6. #5
    Member Dan S's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by pithy View Post
    When you have more actual experience you'll be better prepared to make much less potentially catastrophic recommendations.

    OP: That interior finish on the caseback is easily degraded with abrasive processes even as seemingly benign as a fine polishing cloth.

    The first step is to determine whether the coloration is a stain(residue) or electrochemical. Discrete application of organic and inorganic solvents will determine this. If the coloration is soluble in a particular medium utilize the same in the ultrasonic bath and analyse the results. Repeat and modify as is necessary. If the coloration is indeed oxidation utilize an electrolytic medium in the ultrasonic. If the coloration is persistent mask the exterior of the case and apply the most passive of galvanic treatments to the interior stopping frequently to inspect the progress of removal.

    When the coloration is removed consider the depth of the patterning and the cost versus benefit ratio of applying abrasive.
    Returns from lengthy sabbatical with an unheard-of 150-word response!
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  7. #6
    Member pithy's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Border-Reiver View Post
    What a lineup of impressive words! Perhaps you might also have some answers to the real questions asked: Dating, hallmarks etc. Any clue about the movement?
    Reconsidered your original comments?

    Lol.

    Primum non nocere.
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  8. #7
    Member pithy's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by badbackdan View Post
    Returns from lengthy sabbatical with an unheard-of 150-word response!
    Inauspicious return indeed.
    Courtesy of ULF.

  9. #8
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    And besides, it was forgotten to mention that you never polish silver during full moon when Mars is in the second house of Aquarius.

    So, what do we have so far on the more useful side? Pocket watch, presumably post WWI and before 1930, case not English, but Swiss, movement maker and caliber still to be definded.

    Just in case people wonder what I am talking about, it's not Cape Cod in Massachusetts. Follow the banner on top and see what Mrs. E.M. Sherman has to say (about a civilized way ...):

    https://www.capecodpolish.com/
    Last edited by Border-Reiver; October 25th, 2018 at 09:31.
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  10. #9
    Member Border-Reiver's Avatar
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    Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by pithy View Post
    Reconsidered your original comments?

    Lol.

    Primum non nocere.
    No, but I suspected you could also have a Latin version to impress people, although a bit shorter and unfortunately used a little too 'pedestrian'.

    As I had been, amongst other things, tortured with Latin in school, just one hint to save you from possible embarrassments: This quote, 'primum non nocere etc. etc.', refers to the medical sector – only the medical sector - as an advice to doctors, and should not be used in a general context, although some clueless contempories use it that way. Yet, polishing of silver is a novelty in that respect.

    It is also incomplete. In full: primum non nocere, secundum cavere, tertium sanare (firstly - don't hurt/don't do any harm, secondly – be careful, thirdly – heal).

    That's exactly what the recommended stuff does.

    Still no one here who can identify the movement (although we are still waiting for the measurement), which would also be helpful to date the watch?
    Last edited by Border-Reiver; October 25th, 2018 at 13:35.
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  11. #10
    Member Old Navman's Avatar
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    Confused Re: Please help id this pocket watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Border-Reiver View Post
    Far away from England. The capercaillie (that bird in the triangle) is the Swiss Silver Mark, standard there (as marked) 0.800 and not 0.925 like in England.

    The rest is guessing:

    F and P could stand for Franz Peter, founder of Optima ( F. Peter, Fabrique D'Horlogerie Optima), later taken over by Albert Grossenbacher. That would date the watch (case) after WWI (presumambly 1923) and before 1930.

    Can you give us the size of the movement (inside without the case).

    Nice watch by the way. Like the clean movement and the finish. You should be able to polish the case to perfection (if you want to do this). The stains on the inside of the back cover will come off nicely.

    My can of Cape Cod polish is crying behind me on the shelf to get all over this watch...
    Hello again, thanks so far for all the answers/suggestions.
    Now that I have resorted to using a magnifying glass I can see that indeed this mark in the triangle is a Swiss silver hallmark (grouse) - thanks.
    The movement itself measures 35mm. Unfortunately, as with many earlier Swiss movements there is no markings to indicate who made it.
    I did spy however that the movement has fine ruby jewels inclusive of the pallet jewels. The pallet fork is also jeweled. Whether this additional information
    helps (at all) ...

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