Possibility of Billodes sold movement but who build it

Thread: Possibility of Billodes sold movement but who build it

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  1. #1
    Member SilkeN's Avatar
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    Possibility of Billodes sold movement but who build it

    Last weekend I've grapped a pecular silver savonette pocket watch. Nothing seems to match with each other but it doesn't seems to be a "franken". Its not a valubale one but very very confusing to me. To leave your brain free of all this confusing questionmarks just look at this about 14''' smal movement. Any ideas were it comes from. There are no makersigns on the movement:

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    All ideas/ assosiations are wellcomed. I don't find a start to research. To find out that something is wrong is much more easier

    Kind regards Silke
    Last edited by SilkeN; August 1st, 2014 at 00:28. Reason: Problems with a pic size
    That's what I think about today:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUGeY7MWVo

  2. #2
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: umarked and for me unknown Swiss pocket watch movement - feel free to write down all assosiation

    Some of the elements remind me of Gallet. They've always been somewhat secretive in terms of movements supplied to customers, so it's common for their movements to have no identifiying marks.
    My growing collection of "affordable" vintages: http://www.abslomrob.com

  3. #3
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    Re: umarked and for me unknown Swiss pocket watch movement - feel free to write down all assosiation

    Not sure I can help but will ramble all the same

    It looks like an old keywind/keyset design modified (by the makers) for keyless winding.

    The dial plate has rubbed in jewels (Swiss practice) Whereas the 3/4 plate has jewels set in chatons (English and I believe German practice).

    Seems to be good quality. This is evident from the split bimetallic balance, jewels on both pivots of the wheels and the overcoil hairspring with a somewhat carefully made hairspring stud.

    Someone might be able to weave these random observations into something coherent!

    Kind regards

    Aditya

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  5. #4
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: umarked and for me unknown Swiss pocket watch movement - feel free to write down all assosiation

    Quote Originally Posted by AbslomRob View Post
    Some of the elements remind me of Gallet. They've always been somewhat secretive in terms of movements supplied to customers, .
    I don't think that is Gallet present way.
    If I ask Gallet they always respond if it is their movement.

    Adam
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

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    Adam

  6. #5
    Member SilkeN's Avatar
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    Re: umarked and for me unknown Swiss pocket watch movement - feel free to write down all assosiation

    Thank you all esspecially Aslomrob for the courage to throw a name in the ring. I don't want to play funny games and change now the title. I just need the information that this is no commun movement or some signs typical for someone else. This movement is not marked and the hole watch is made out of unused parts but leftovers. Therefore you can never be sure, that all parts are out of one company but in this case its possible. The movement is round about about 30 years older than the rest and orginally made for ladys watches for the english market. The fashion changed and a overproduction in generel excist during that aera. This movement was put in a 3 mm thick movementretainingring and a metaldial was fixed with srews at 6 and 12. The dial never has owed feeds in his life. The adaption was made very professionel and in a proper way but it is very very
    strange.

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    Thus I thought about a Franken and you can't check a lot when you're on a flew market. Therefore I bought it. At home I found in the Rössler page 62 a quite simular bigger one for the german market. The anchor bridge was unusally fixed with one srew as here and on the balancecock there is a hole for a srew were I found here a part of the stud mount. This movement seems to be a little bid older with the rest part of a keywinder. Still crazy and I'm not 100% convinced but it could be.

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    Here is the watch with a billodes stamped case in 800'er silver with swiss and german silvermarks. Only the hands are not a real pair.

    Kind regards Silke


    As a little addition:
    Movements with the reatched on the dial side are rare by GFJ but possible. This is 100% GFJ and with the movementnumber 286823 probably made around 1890/95. Unfortunately it's only a movement but I grap all unusal GFJ stuff I can get. Crazy I know but I collect story and watches . This movement is in all other points typical GFJ and a bridge simular to the 278. Savonette with handle for time setting.

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    Last edited by SilkeN; July 31st, 2014 at 23:47. Reason: Pictures
    That's what I think about today:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUGeY7MWVo

  7. #6
    Zenith Forum Co-moderator
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    Re: Possibility of Billodes movement but strange and not verified

    I rather doubt that it is a Billodes movement. The angle in the geartrain (minus escapement gear) is only just over 90°. Billodes and Zenith movements had a greater angle between these three gears (ca. 100-110°).

    Hartmut Richter

  8. #7
    Member SilkeN's Avatar
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    Re: Possibility of Billodes movement but strange and not verified

    What's about the billodes on page 62 in the Rössler. Personally I've doubt that it was developed by GFJ because its very strange in different points. But maybe they sold it. I need some time until my brain understand your angle stuff but I will .

    Kind regards Silke
    That's what I think about today:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUGeY7MWVo

  9. #8
    Zenith Forum Co-moderator
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    Re: Possibility of Billodes movement but strange and not verified

    This is what I meant:

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    I can see what you mean by the Billodes movement in Rössler on p. 62. it is certainly a close match. But in view of the fact that no such movement appears in the BW drawings pages for movements used in 1905 (pp. 38-40), I have some doubts that this was really a Zenith movement. Rössler shows that Zenith did use other makers' movements from time to time (e.g. Heinrich Moser, p. 70).

    Hartmut Richter

  10. #9
    Member SilkeN's Avatar
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    Re: Possibility of Billodes movement but strange and not verified

    Thank you for the explanation. I think you're right. Then all things matches. All signs are untypical for billodes and you can find other maker movements/rawmovements in Clos Dunods (trade name GFJ) or also in the mark IVa for the britsh army (Graisely-Freres/ Octava movement "billodes" marked). I only was blind because this watch is out of the Zenith collection. But I'm quite happy that this watch could be "orginal sold parts" of them. Sure you'll never get the evidence. I try a little bit to get the hole picture what's happen there around 1900 but I probably get no clear idea within 100 years - but we'll see.

    Kind regards Silke
    Last edited by SilkeN; August 1st, 2014 at 01:26.
    That's what I think about today:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUGeY7MWVo

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