Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch
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  1. #1
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    Off Topic post Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    have a Good weekend, dear Vintage Forum!

    i'm glad to write post in this great forum
    i often see this forum. and get many information.
    thanks to this great forum & great members.


    i obtained this watch.(please see my additional picture)
    maybe this watch's design & movement's type and hall marks indicate some or many information.
    and i think some of these hallmark means...

    1. THIS WATCH'S CASE HALLMARK

    <RF> - MAKER- Robert freres, Minerva SA (?)
    RAYMOND FRERES(?)-VALJOUX(?)
    <GROUSE> - SWISS 0.800 SILVER
    <MOON & CROWN>-GERMAN SILVER SIGN
    <141844> & <E> - SERIAL NO. & MAKING YEAR(?) or City of Swiss(?)


    2. MOVEMENT HALL MARK(UNDER DIAL)

    <DEPOSE> - SWISS RESISTERED SIGN
    <141844> - it's the SAME NO. WITH CASE SERIAL NO.
    <17> - MAYBE THIS MOVEMENT'S MODEL-NAME?

    this watch's diameter is 40mm(without crown)
    movement diameter is approxi.. 35mm

    what do you think about? above is just my opinion.

    and please let me know this watch's identity..

    is it coverted pocketwatch?
    or originally made wristwatch?
    when did this maked?
    who made this?
    and so on......

    i ask you for assistance with this timepiece,
    about which I could not find more information in the FAQs, the Forum-Search, or from Web.


    any information is appreciated,
    thanks, johneykim



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    Last edited by johneykim; May 25th, 2013 at 06:51.
    joeuk likes this.

  2. #2
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    i got some e-mails from some Expert
    they think this is swiss made wrist watch for german market.
    and this is very early made. 1900's era.
    and they think <RF> IS case maker's rather than movement manufacturer's sign
    but they not sure it's swiss mark or german mark

    um....
    what is <RF> hallmark's mean?
    what is <depose> signed movement?
    who made this watch?

    please help & i'm waiting for an forum's knowledge..
    Last edited by johneykim; May 30th, 2013 at 06:57.

  3. #3
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    Hi and welcome
    That is a WONDERFUL early chronograph timepiece. Really lovely
    And the case and movement in my opinion were always a wristwatch - not a converted pocket watch.
    Case and movement same serial number - that is very good as well. Not recased
    Its an early piece single button chronograph from 1917/1920

    I am not good enough to tell you the movement maker - but why did you think Minerva??

    RF is the sponsors mark, the person who got it assayed?
    The crown and moon will be the manufacturers mark. I am not sure who that is, but some one will. I am looking

    Once again GREAT piece
    Last edited by HOROLOGIST007; May 24th, 2013 at 16:14.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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  5. #4
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    The crown and moon will be the manufacturers mark.
    The crown and crescent moon was the German hallmark: German Hallmarks II page 1 - Encyclopedia of Silver Marks, Hallmarks & Makers' Marks and the grouse is the Swiss silver hallmark for.800 silver till 1934 Guide to World Hallmarks - Encyclopedia of Silver Marks, Hallmarks & Makers' Marks
    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects."

    Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)


    Please don't PM me to ask for a valuation - I won't attempt one.

  6. #5
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    hi & thanks to your opinion & praise
    i'm so happy to hear that..

    i thought <RF> is the case makers mark, and case & movement got a same serial number
    so i think <RF> IS manufacturers mark
    The crown and moon is clearly german silver hallmark.
    Name:  minerva-pocket2.jpg
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    see above picture.
    this is minerva's pocket watch.it has <RF> hallmark with 0,800 silver sign
    it indicate's <ROBERT FRERES>
    above picture from ebay.com (sorry for Unauthorized use of picture)
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Minerva-Chro...ht_1241wt_1170

    and another sample is hear
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pock...ht_1242wt_1141

    these 2 sample both have a <Rf> hallmark
    so i thought my watch is minerva.
    but unfortunatly it seems not true. (as e-mail from MINERVA SA)

    thank you..
    Last edited by johneykim; May 25th, 2013 at 06:44.

  7. #6
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrick View Post
    The crown and crescent moon was the German hallmark: German Hallmarks II page 1 - Encyclopedia of Silver Marks, Hallmarks & Makers' Marks and the grouse is the Swiss silver hallmark for.800 silver till 1934 Guide to World Hallmarks - Encyclopedia of Silver Marks, Hallmarks & Makers' Marks
    Thanks for correcting that.
    so used to only UK and Swiss
    I jumped and searched for that as a trademark

    adam
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  8. #7
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    Quote Originally Posted by johneykim View Post
    hi & thanks to your opinion & praise
    i'm so happy to hear that..

    i thought <RF> is the case makers mark, and case & movement got a same serial number
    so i think <RF> IS manufacturers mark
    The crown and moon is clearly german silver hallmark.
    Name:  minerva-pocket2.jpg
Views: 2111
Size:  223.3 KB
    see above picture.
    this is minerva's pocket watch.it has <RF> hallmark with 0,800 silver sign
    it indicate's <ROBERT FRERES>

    so i thought my watch is minerva.
    but unfortunatly it seems not true. (as e-mail from MINERVA SA)

    thank you..
    Well although I got NO idea who the manufacturer is (i am sure others can tell)
    Its a lovely, lovely piece.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  9. #8
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    thank you adam & marrick.
    there are many content's for swiss hall mark in web
    and also many vintage watch & pocketwatches are in the web
    but <RF> HALL MARK is so hard to find.

    below is almost of hallmark's signed <RF>
    Reymond Freres sa - valjoux
    Robert Freres sa -minerva etc......

    Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index

    please see this link. and please put the keywoed 'RF'
    some result may find from...

    what do you think about?
    what is my watch's hallmark?
    Last edited by johneykim; May 25th, 2013 at 06:37.

  10. #9
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    I'm sorry but I really don't know. RF was probably the case maker - and perhaps you could try looking on silver collectors' sites or forums.

    I've tried to identify the movement but failed.
    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects."

    Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)


    Please don't PM me to ask for a valuation - I won't attempt one.

  11. #10
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    Re: Robert Freres SA. Minerva SA? please see this trench-style watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrick View Post
    I'm sorry but I really don't know. RF was probably the case maker - and perhaps you could try looking on silver collectors' sites or forums.

    I've tried to identify the movement but failed.

    many thank's for you to trying.
    my piece is simple manual wind chronograph with colummwheel compare with other movement maked after 1920's
    it look's like early martell, valjoux(Reymond Freres), longines, minerva's chrono movement
    but single pusher's location is different from them

    i think this watch is from 1900-1920
    and i think if <RF>marking was case maker's marking. it did not marked final manufacturer's(or assayed)marking

    anyway i'll waiting for someone who knows this watch
    thank you!

    johneykim

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