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  1. #141
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emre View Post
    Bobbee I see your point and the exact date of 19 Jul 1930. It's very logic.

    Even though the French patent is not mentioning Farret for some reason Jacques Farret is taking ownership of the Autorist patent and registers it in USA,Finland and Canada :Espacenet - results view

    So whether this guy - Farret - is the inventor but not mentioned for some reason in the initial French patent and Autorist SA is a joint venture between again Vogt, Harwood and Farret- which I believe is not- or Harwood invents and authorizes Farret to register the same patent overseas. In this case Adam's question is valid? Why did Harwood not write his name on the initial patent. Farret doesn't have any other inventions or patents, I guess he is just acting on Harwood's signature proxy.

    Well at least there is one certain thing, the French patent is the earliest so far Autorist patent, we can track back from there.


    Thanks Emre for agreeing with the logic.

    Perhaps Farret worked for Vogt?
    Maybe a question to the company (Fortis) could clear this up, as they may have records showing Farret's name somewhere. This would be in their own interests, as any information regarding the history of the company in automatics would surely be welcome to them.

    If Harwood's name is nowhere to be seen on either patent, Fortis needs to rethink that book, unless proof positive can be found contrari-wise!

  2. #142
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    Strange
    This morning you posted Annen as the original inventor!

    Now Emre shows a Fortis - Autorist photo and write up with a Brevet number showing Harwood as the inventor.

    And you now claim Farret was the inventor.

    I think you are happy if anyone invented it, as long as it was not Harwood (who did)


    Adam


    Just wondering, can you actually point out where, in this patent, does it show a brevet (patent) number showing Harwood as the inventor?
    The above find by Emre is from the Fortis book, and you know (or should do) that Manufacturers "official" timelines/books/history are to be taken with a pinch of salt.
    Rolex and Bulova spring immediately to mind, so what makes this Fortis "history" any different?



    As far as I was (am) concerned only two names were never linked in patents or official documents to Autorist and they are John Harwood and Farret
    And please explain what is meant by this statement? It appears to be at odds with what you claim earlier about Harwood, and what we have in records about Farret being the inventor.

    This is just for clarification, please understand.

    Thanks, Bob.

    EDIT- Forgot to add this screenshot showing Farret's name on not one but three patents/official documents!




    Name:  zzzzzzfarret multi-patents.png
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    Last edited by bobbee; August 7th, 2015 at 15:26.

  3. #143
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Bob, but these patents are about the same invention, the Autorist patent as I've linked to in post no: 140. This won't proof or disproof Farret as inventor, just helps us track further. All these patents now we know originated from the French patent 699159, and that one is weirdly not on Farret's neither on Harwood's name.
    My opinion, Farret was assigned by Harwood or Vogt to register these patents overseas in Finland, Canada and US. He may have been assigned for the US market to distribute and sell Harwood and Autorist watches and in the meantime has registered these patents to protect their intellectual property.

    The Fortis claim is not like the UG claim for 1925 Auto-Rem, it has at least a patent number which lead us to the French patent. But still for the sake of correct information, we don't have solid proof for who invented this Autorist. What we have in documents and archives so far is a Vogt connection to Harwood and these are connected to Autorist. But we have also the info that when Harwood went bankrupt, Autorist also went down. But Vogt continued to his ventures and did not choose to save this companies. So it's about Harwood and Autorist at its core.
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  5. #144
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Emre, the only patent with any name on it is the one with Farret named as the inventor, but the ORIGINAL assignee is named as the Autorist company.
    I suppose it is possible that Harwood is the inventor, but the official patents apart from the original 1930 French one should have his name on them as inventor in that case, as Harwood was still in possession of (at least part of) the Autorist company name, was he not?
    It wasn't until 1933 that the company went into liquidation, and at least two of the applications pre-date this.

    Cheers, Bob.

  6. #145
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    In my understanding, we shouldn't apply today's mind-set while researching an 85 year earlier period.

    Back then,people were just cooperating more than we do and think now. Most of the inventors were curious and skilled people, whereas the later ones who developed the initial inventions were good businessman.One thinks of Hans Wilsdorf who fits perfect into this example of mind set and period.

    He buys the screw down patent,invented by Perret & Perregaux in 1926 ( CH114948 ) and registers it in GB as assignee where the inventors are mentioned as Perret and Perregaux ( GB260554):

    Name:  Rolex Perret CH114948 GB260554.jpg
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    But then he comes up with some improvements and registers the screw down patent as inventor and applicant on his name (CH120848):

    Name:  Rolex CH120848.jpg
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    Voila! Suddenly he becomes the inventor of this patent.

    So, these are really tricky waters. I don't rule out Farret as inventor, he might have as much chance as Harwood, but he just doesn't have any other background. At the other hand, Harwood has all the work and documents and continues in the market after his company has been liquidated. He has further patents....In Farret's case,nobody just surfaces with an automatic watch patent which has been realized and then disappears from history.It's against the natural flow of life.
    So in this case I would give 51% to Harwood. But again, I have no proof, yet.
    Last edited by Emre; August 7th, 2015 at 18:22.
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  7. #146
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    That's a good explanation Emre, but it doesn't compare to the patent(s) in hand.
    Take the dates into consideration as I mentioned in my last post, and we can make up another story.

    *Harwood invents the Autorist pre-July 1930.
    *He applies for a patent on 19th. July in France, of all places.
    *Less than twelve months later, he sends out Farret to re-apply in the US for a renewal of the patent (and in Canada and Finland too).
    *For some reason Farret puts his name on the renewed patent(s) as the inventor.

    The first is a presumption only, but as Harwood is the known inventor, let's carry on with the assumption.
    The second: Why would the application be in France? Can anyone come up with a reason for this?
    The third: Why has Farret, a complete unknown (for now) been tasked with this? Is he a lawyer/solicitor? Is he a board member of Voigt, or in a managerial position? Who is he?
    The fourth: Why put his own name to an invention that has nothing to do with him, an invention that is currently (1931) being marketed for the Autorist Company? Harwood would not be a happy bunny about this, surely?

    This seems a little unusual to me, especially considering the timeline of the patents and the manufacture and subsequent liquidation of goods/chattels.

    Wish I could explain myself better, but never mind it's not important.
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  8. #147
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    That's a good explanation Emre, but it doesn't compare to the patent(s) in hand.
    Take the dates into consideration as I mentioned in my last post, and we can make up another story.

    *Harwood invents the Autorist pre-July 1930.
    *He applies for a patent on 19th. July in France, of all places.
    *Less than twelve months later, he sends out Farret to re-apply in the US for a renewal of the patent (and in Canada and Finland too).
    *For some reason Farret puts his name on the renewed patent(s) as the inventor.

    The first is a presumption only, but as Harwood is the known inventor, let's carry on with the assumption.
    The second: Why would the application be in France? Can anyone come up with a reason for this?
    The third: Why has Farret, a complete unknown (for now) been tasked with this? Is he a lawyer/solicitor? Is he a board member of Voigt, or in a managerial position? Who is he?
    The fourth: Why put his own name to an invention that has nothing to do with him, an invention that is currently (1931) being marketed for the Autorist Company? Harwood would not be a happy bunny about this, surely?

    This seems a little unusual to me, especially considering the timeline of the patents and the manufacture and subsequent liquidation of goods/chattels.

    Wish I could explain myself better, but never mind it's not important.

    Good questions, why in France?
    Did you notice the original drawings were French... crossed 7.

    Farret was French, who was this mysterious Farret? original patents have him as the inventor of
    the Autorist, yet I've been searching for hours and no mention.

    Absolutely brilliant research in this thread, love the empirical approach/first principal approach, diregarding
    horological dogma...the truth will be out.

    It might not be important in the 'grand scheme of things', but it is always nice to arrive at a greater truth and knowledge.
    I find it interesting anyways.

    Brilliant stuff.
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  9. #148
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Seems to me that all the active "research" was done by Emre, and I surely congratulate him for all the relevant discoveries!
    Regards
    adam
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

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    Adam

  10. #149
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Bob, surely rightful questions. I don't have the answers,we don't have the answers, yet at least.Except: Why in France?

    Now, I don't go so deep normally for other brands' research except Glycine and Meylan,but this topic is really intriguing.

    So this is what is happening at the commercial side of Harwood:

    16Oct1923 Harwood and his buddy Harry Cutts apply for the Harwood self winding watch patent in Switzerland: CH106583 ( registered : 1Sept1924 )

    17Aug1928 The patent CH106583 is being transferred to ' Harwood Self-Winding Watch Company, Limited'. The company is registered in Manchester, Great Britain:

    Name:  17Aug1928 HarwoodPatentTransfer.jpg
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    20Jul1929 The Fortis guy Walter Vogt Weber makes his first appearance in the company when the above Harwood company sells the rights of the patent use ( for 50,000 CHF ) to the company 'Societe Anonyme de Montres Harwood'. To my limited French this is a company where others also have shares. So the invention is not only Harwood's anymore:

    Name:  20Jul29VogtHarwood.jpg
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    14Aug1929 Right after Vogt's involvement they start a series of warnings to other fabricants and manufacturers that this invention is patented and intellectual property theft will be punished by courts.Here the company as has a Swiss address in Grenchen - Granges, 'Societe Anonyme de Montres Harwood':

    Name:  14Aug1929WarningHarwood.jpg
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    17Mar1930 Interestingly the improvements on the Harwood mechanism are patented by the French branch of the Harwood Company: Societe Francaise de la Montre Sans Remontoir Harwood. WTF!!

    Name:  Harwood FrenchAddress.jpg
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    Name:  HarwoodFrenchPatents.jpg
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    March 1930 is just a few months before the FR699159 Autorist patent application and Harwood is already registered in France.

    By the way in Dec 1929 another company surfaces in London with the name ' Harwatch Syndicate Limited' who claims the patent but the Swiss courts decide for the favour of the 'Societe Anonym Harwood' in Grenchen,Switzerland. Super complicated.

    Without this Harwatch point,things are a bit more consistent. Maybe this London company is the guy Harry Cutts with whom Harwood started all.Never mind.

    Long story short. Harwood was already in France in 1930. Obviously a lot of conflict going on for this patent.

    Back to Autorist...
    Last edited by Emre; August 7th, 2015 at 23:30.
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  11. #150
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    Re: Self-Winding Wrist Watch Patents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emre View Post
    Bob, surely rightful questions. I don't have the answers,we don't have the answers, yet at least.Except: Why in France?

    Now, I don't go so deep normally for other brands' research except Glycine and Meylan,but this topic is really intriguing.

    So this is what is happening at the commercial side of Harwood:

    16Oct1923 Harwood and his buddy Harry Cutts apply for the Harwood self winding watch patent in Switzerland: CH106583 ( registered : 1Sept1924 )

    17Aug1928 The patent CH106583 is being transferred to ' Harwood Self-Winding Watch Company, Limited'. The company is registered in Manchester, Great Britain:

    Name:  17Aug1928 HarwoodPatentTransfer.jpg
Views: 43
Size:  53.3 KB

    20Jul1929 The Fortis guy Walter Vogt Weber makes his first appearance in the company when the above Harwood company sells the rights of the patent use ( for 50,000 CHF ) to the company 'Societe Anonyme de Montres Harwood'. To my limited French this is a company where others also have shares. So the invention is not only Harwood's anymore:

    Name:  20Jul29VogtHarwood.jpg
Views: 44
Size:  38.6 KB


    14Aug1929 Right after Vogt's involvement they start a series of warnings to other fabricants and manufacturers that this invention is patented and intellectual property theft will be punished by courts.Here the company as has a Swiss address in Grenchen - Granges, 'Societe Anonyme de Montres Harwood':

    Name:  14Aug1929WarningHarwood.jpg
Views: 43
Size:  60.4 KB

    17Mar1930 Interestingly the improvements on the Harwood mechanism are patented by the French branch of the Harwood Company: Societe Francaise de la Montre Sans Remontoir Harwood. WTF!!

    Name:  Harwood FrenchAddress.jpg
Views: 42
Size:  62.9 KB

    Name:  HarwoodFrenchPatents.jpg
Views: 39
Size:  70.4 KB

    March 1930 is just a few months before the FR699159 Autorist patent application and Harwood is already registered in France.

    By the way in Dec 1929 another company surfaces in London with the name ' Harwatch Syndicate Limited' who claims the patent but the Swiss courts decide for the favour of the 'Societe Anonym Harwood' in Grenchen,Switzerland. Super complicated.

    Without this Harwatch point,things are a bit more consistent. Maybe this London company is the guy Harry Cutts with whom Harwood started all.Never mind.

    Long story short. Harwood was already in France in 1930. Obviously a lot of conflict going on for this patent.

    Back to Autorist...
    Agai great research Emre
    Harwood was already in France in 1930. Obviously a lot of conflict going on for this patent.
    This was before 1930, I have the original shares
    and an interview with Harwood in his own hand, where he discusses opening the French company.

    The improvements you show was for Blancpain to have an oblong watch, so Harwood moved the hand setting bezel to the back case

    But some great new data I never had - Thanks

    A
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

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