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  1. #21
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    Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Idamae View Post
    Update: He said he replaced it with an ETA 2836-2. He said he would never use a Chinese knock off. He offered to open it up for me when I bring it in. How will I be able to tell if it is a clone-is this easy to spot? If it is a clone will it say SWISS MADE? Also, He said ETA makes three kinds of international day/date combos, one being Chinese/English. Does anyone know if this is true? I can't find anything about that in my research so far. I asked if he had a choice in putting in Chinese/English or Spanish/English (as was in there before) he said no...
    First: the ETA 2836 is a good movement and it was used in some Rados. Whether it belongs into a 70's Rado, I don't know - to my best knowledge back then they used movements like the 2789. But I stand to be corrected.

    Second: the Chinese market nowadays is too important for ETA/the Swatch Group to not have Chinese date wheels in their movements. Again - for the 1970s the story is different - at that time China was no market at all.

    Third: there are 2836-clones with and without 'Swiss Made' on the movement. To the trained eye the difference between a clone and the original is mostly obvious, to the layman it is not. So without detailed movement shots nobody here will be able to tell you the differences.

    Fourth - a watchmaker incapable to replace a standard date wheel on a standard movement is not really worth his salt. My opinion.

    Last point: does the watch run satisfactorily? If it doesn't, return it for an improvement on the repair job. At almost 400 $ you can expect them to do a decent job.


    Regards,
    Tomcat

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    Last edited by Tomcat1960; August 3rd, 2014 at 17:49.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Triton9 View Post
    Look carefully at the balance spring jewel shape. Even you do see the ETA logo stamp on the plate, the logo can be fake but very rare case, the balance spring jewel will be fake.
    Not sure a 100% but I think the Kif shock protection can (or at least could) be specified on the 2836, too. And keep in mind that ETA has parts produced in China, up to complete movements. Obviously, these would be marked with the ETA stamp.


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    After all's been said and done, there's a lot more said than done...

    Patina: little pieces of history put on old watches and forgotten there by the maker of time

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    "Luxury watches - you acquire the right to take care of them, but they remain the property of their manufacturers."
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  3. #23
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1960 View Post
    Not sure a 100% but I think the Kif shock protection can (or at least could) be specified on the 2836, too. And keep in mind that ETA has parts produced in China, up to complete movements. Obviously, these would be marked with the ETA stamp.


    Regards,
    Tomcat

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    ETA or SW200 balance spring part are all produced in switzerland. So far , I have not seen a genuine ETA blance spring in Hangzhou or Seagull shaping type.
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  5. #24
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    I take it if the Chinese can manufacture a Kif antishock device, they can do so with an Incabloc. I'm pretty sure there are 2836-2 clones from China sporting an Incabloc. They are actually scaringly well done - even experts cannot distinguish them anymore at first sight. At least, some of them.

    To my best knowledge the hairspring for the SW200 is not even made in Switzerland anymore but comes from Germany. This seems to be a result of the ever stricter ETA sales policy aimed at holding off non-ETA competitors from key components (like hairsprings). And I know from a usually trustworthy source that ETA has at least certain movement parts - castings like platines, bridges and cocks - produced in China. Or at least they did so because rumour has it that ETA has brought back production from China both due to quality and piracy issues. Still, I bet the molds are still somewhere out there ...

    Best,
    Tomcat
    Last edited by Tomcat1960; August 3rd, 2014 at 17:16. Reason: typos ...
    After all's been said and done, there's a lot more said than done...

    Patina: little pieces of history put on old watches and forgotten there by the maker of time

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  6. #25
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

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  7. #26
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Idamae View Post
    Update: He said he replaced it with an ETA 2836-2. He said he would never use a Chinese knock off. He offered to open it up for me when I bring it in. How will I be able to tell if it is a clone-is this easy to spot? If it is a clone will it say SWISS MADE? Also, He said ETA makes three kinds of international day/date combos, one being Chinese/English. Does anyone know if this is true? I can't find anything about that in my research so far. I asked if he had a choice in putting in Chinese/English or Spanish/English (as was in there before) he said no...

    Like Tomcat I would have believed that your Voyager would have had an ETA 2789 in it, but later Voyagers do have 2836s. Can you tell me what the ref. number is and I may be able to tell you what the correct movement is. The ref number will be something like: 625. xxx. x

    As for day/date wheels, ETA made them in many languages. I have or have seen English, French, German, Italian, Arabic, Spanish, Portuguese and others. If the print on it is gold it is clearly not from a vintage Rado.

    I also agree with Tomcat that a watchmaker should be able to change a day wheel. Heck, I can and have done that.

  8. #27
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1960 View Post
    ...Second: the Chinese market nowadays is too important for ETA/the Swatch Group to not have Chinese date wheels in their movements. Again - for the 1970s the story is different - at that time China was no market at all ...
    Pardon me for pointing out... there's some part you're... quite wrong... and this draws my attention...
    In the mid 70s till mid 80s, the Asian market is booming along with growth on key chinese markets(no... not mainland china, but mostly chinese populated countries such as Singapore, HongKong and Taiwan notably). Hence the growing demand for Swiss Made watches as well, and swiss watch makers such as TITONI, RADO and MIDO got their popularity grown as well during that period of time...
    Chinese date wheel can be found on numbers of Swiss watches from the 3 names mentioned, and it was common then due to great demands from the respective market consumers of Chinese origin.
    However, today, when the real Chinese market grows(i mean mainland china), consumers may not want to see chinese date wheels on their expensive Swiss Made watches, chinese date wheels becomes obsolete, and Swiss makers such as the 3 above mentioned, stopped utilising in mid 90s.

    I wouldn't deny that there are chinese made movements without chinese date wheel in production today. However looking at the picture of TS washed out Chinese date wheel, there could be some minor chance that the movement can be sourced from old watches.
    To be sure... it's better that TS can bring along a WIS friend along, revisit the watchmaker, demand to uncase and verify the movement's authenticity.
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  9. #28
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed.YANG View Post
    Pardon me for pointing out... there's some part you're... quite wrong... and this draws my attention...(...)

    To be sure... it's better that TS can bring along a WIS friend along, revisit the watchmaker, demand to uncase and verify the movement's authenticity.
    Interesting, and, of course, your statement makes absolute sense. Point taken - so there may be vintage Chinese date wheels around even though watches sporting them were not sold in mainland China. Still, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore with together some 35 million (mostly Chinese) inhabitants, and huge Chinese populations in Indonesia and Malaysia in fact costituted a market definitely worth the production of Chinese-customized movements. Also, I find interesting that today's wealthy Chinese don't want to see Chinese date wheels in their expensive Swiss watches ... especially given new China's national pride.

    And your final conclusion is 100 % correct.

    Best,
    Tomcat
    Ed.YANG and bobbee like this.
    After all's been said and done, there's a lot more said than done...

    Patina: little pieces of history put on old watches and forgotten there by the maker of time

    "Miracles?", he asked. "Forget about miracles. Those who walk on water just know where the stepstones are."

    "Luxury watches - you acquire the right to take care of them, but they remain the property of their manufacturers."
    (Roland Ranfft)

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  10. #29
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat1960 View Post
    ...Also, I find interesting that today's wealthy Chinese don't want to see Chinese date wheels in their expensive Swiss watches ... especially given new China's national pride. ...
    Well... in my whole journey in watch collection so far... found and acquired only 2 with Chinese day wheel.
    One on the furthest left...

    Another ... in the middle, a work beater.
    bobbee likes this.
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  11. #30
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    Re: Suspect a cheap knock off movement replaced in vintage Rado

    Very helpful, thank you! I will take it in next week and get a good look, take a photo. Thanks.

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