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Thread: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/thread

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  1. #71
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    You seem upset for some reason that I honestly cannot fathom. The Harwatch Syndicate is NOT the Harwood Selfwinding Watch Company; they're separate legal entities. I'm not trying to "argue" anything here, I'm trying to expand the knowledge. YOu're the one who chooses to interpret everything as a personal attack on your ego. Please get over that.

    I'm not suggesting that the patent "predicts" anything, I'm pointing out that the country began to have issues that may have affected the operation of the patent office. A date of January 1 is an odd date; for one thing, it's was a sunday on that year, and not a lot of "business" happens on a sunday. That suggests to me that the date is a "placeholder" of some sort that may have been added to the file after the fact. Not sure, but it's nonetheless interesting.

    No one disputes the authenticity of the watch. What we're trying to understand is the relationship of the various business entities that are associated with it; through this understanding, it becomes easier to understand where the watch sits in Horology. For instance, I'd love to know who the members of the "Harwatch Syndicate" were.
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  2. #72
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    I have obtained some more information. the harwood watch co and the harwatch syndicate are showing as to separate companies via british archives



    Please note the dates, the harwatch syndicate is the early company with the date of 1926(this does not conflict with the newspaper ad from earlier post there is a mistake in the reading of that it does not show a set up date of 1929 but rather a law of 1929). in relation to the blancpain movement the patent marked on it is the French version of the original patent sets and is linked to uk,swiss and us patents and cant how relate in any way to a back hand set rather than a movement as a whole.

    I have been trough all patents I can find in relation to john harwood and can not find anything in relation to a back hand set. there is a updated patent for the uk that details a updated/improvement to how the bezel fits to the case etc no sign of back wind though.......I have also found a advert for spain which clearly shows the blancpain type movement was in use in for Spanish market so does this mean that both blancpain(licenced to use harwood movement)and the harwatch syndicate directly sold harwood watches in spain. could it be possible that the espanola movement was for a Spanish commonwealth country to which blancpain didn't retail to? or did blancpain stop retailing to spain at some point to pursue other interests and the harwatch syndicate took up the market for a short time hence a different movement arggg so many possibility's
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  3. #73
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    in relation to the difference in the French patent I have found this info in the notes

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  5. #74
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    DESCRIPTION FR580247


    Improvements made to watches and other watches.
    Perfectionnements apportés aux montres-bracelets et autres montres.

    The invention relates to watches and other watches, and aims to achieve a watch back automatically to help remove any-body protruding outside the housing, such as the winding stem for .

    Thus it makes the housing of the completely water-tight watch and dust.

  6. #75
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    Would this mean then that the French patent mark could not be used on any model that had a front bezel wind as it would conflict with the patent description?????? if this is case then if blancpain started to sell to Spanish market around 1929 with rear wind watches they could have used the French movement hence the advert with the French style movement. If then the Spanish market seeked both front and rear wind models(which they most of done taking into consideration my front wind Spanish model) there would need to be a new patent that blancpain to use for that. hence the harwatch syndicate(john harwood) setting up a patent for licence to blancpain in spain and also supplying cases that blancpain did not make direct from the uk. The only down side to this is the watch I found with a rear wind and a Espanola patent but I suppose that if its a model after the Espanola patent date it would have been more cost effective in a financially hard time to supply only one movement to the country or been fair as it is the same model that is pictured in the spain advert with a blancpain movement it could have been a frankened case/movement it does look correct tho so id verge on the earlier! I THINK THIS WAS ALSO THE POINT ADAM WAS TRYING TO MAKE MAYBE????

  7. #76
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    In regards to the harwood companies

    John harwood was the inventor etc
    Harry cutts was the original investor

    Both named on early patents

    When the need came to sell mass make the harwood watch in 1926 a company was set up with two further investor's so

    John harwood
    Harry cutts
    And two brothers from Manchester
    Louis and Phillip Alexander

    This was company was the harwatch syndicate. (Please note names on the newspaper liquidation ad)Basicly this company sold liesences to watch companies thus to make the watches and distribute to there designated country's any further patents after the set up of this company would be long to the company and not technically john harwood like the early ones this explains the Spain patent

    In 1928 a seperate company the harwood watch company was set up with the aim of selling harwood watches to its own market the UK
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  8. #77
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    Hi jonsvjon
    A lot of good research there- well done
    I am having trouble fully researching alll your points due to PC issues and family visitors here.

    The French Blancpain Patent owned by Harwood and Cutts No 580247, is slightly different to the Swiss and UK patent.
    Mentioning the hand setting on the back case (not the front bezel)

    All five patents are owned by Harwood and Cutts

    I also checked an article written by John Harwood, he mentions patents in Swiss, Uk, France, Germany and USA but NOT Spain. Did he forget?/

    The Spanish advert find is VERY cool
    I never had that.

    PS it 'setting' NOT winding
    Regards
    Last edited by HOROLOGIST007; August 6th, 2013 at 18:38.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

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  9. #78
    Member Emre's Avatar
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    Great research. It's always pleasant to discover documents and sources to build up facts. I like these journeys also,am not that much into Harwood,but the brand I am collecting has also some obscure times in that particular era, ( economic recession ) not many brands have that period well documented and that's why this passion is also related with exploring. Whatever the outcome will be, it is pleasant to read and see these documents and healthy discussions, thank you.
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  10. #79
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    Quote Originally Posted by AbslomRob View Post
    The odd thing about that patent is that is says the patent was registered for 5 years, but there's no "implementation" date, and it "expired" in 1933, only four years after the filing. I wonder if the patent was abandonded
    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    Hi jonsvjon
    A lot of good research there- well done
    I am having trouble fully researching alll your points due to PC issues and family visitors here.

    The French Blancpain Patent owned by Harwood and Cutts No 580247, is slightly different to the Swiss and UK patent.
    Mentioning the hand setting on the back case (not the front bezel)

    All five patents are owned by Harwood and Cutts

    I also checked an article written by John Harwood, he mentions patents in Swiss, Uk, France, Germany and USA but NOT Spain. Did he forget?/

    The Spanish advert find is VERY cool
    I never had that.

    PS it 'setting' NOT winding
    Regards
    Yes I fully agree that the french patent was different from the other orginals it does mention the rear setting obviously for blanc pain and all of the originals were in johns and Harry's name

    He may not have mentioned the Spanish one as this wasn't his but rather his company's AbslomRob made a valid point hi lighted at the top of this post please read ........was it even a true full patent???? Or rather a point of intent to a marketplace used on blancpain movements to get around a problem with the French patent in a Spanish market

    I've got a few different ads now send me your email and I'll send to you do you have any better quality info/pics than is posted on this thread? If so I would love them!!!
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  11. #80
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    Re: The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/th

    Don't suppose anyone knows what the mark of br+der located on my watch movement means ???

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