Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By Hartmut Richter

Thread: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    Member zombaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    OH, USA
    Posts
    34

    Picture Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    Hi all,

    Based on the number of Tobias posts I've seen around the internet, I'm guessing this is just another annoying Tobias post... lol

    Anyway, I have a pocket watch that was my grandfather's before he passed. From all that I've seen and read online, I gather that this is likely a fake, possibly even a "fake Swiss fake" as someone has posted elsewhere regarding some Tobias'. I'm interested in dating it more than anything, but I'm also curious as to its history (if any can be gleaned) as the dial work depicts a woman wearing a blue and white dress with stars holding a red flag and laying a document (Declaration of Independence?) on a revolutionary soldier's head, possibly in the clouds (a soldier who has passed on?)... I've spent hours sifting through pictures and threads on the net looking for similar pocket watches to no avail. Any insight would be helpful. It's in pretty rough condition (as you can see), but it will do some ticking..

    I do not see any real hallmarks on the case of the watch to indicate its history, but what I can see are the following details:
    - The front of the case features some worn decorations including a wreath and a dog inside a trumpet or horn.
    - Inside the front case, I can see "06" lightly stamped.
    - Apart from the revolutionary-esque art, the dial is very plain with no text.
    - The back of the case appears to have at one time featured a spiraling diamond pattern with a circle in the middle.
    - "80006" is lightly stamped inside the back of the case.
    - The M. J. Tobias "signature" appears to be of reasonably high quality while the rest of the text engraved into the inner caseback - "LIVERPOOL," "PATENT LEVER," and "FULL JEWELLED" - seems low in quality.
    - Inside the inner caseback, I can see another lightly stamped "80006" next to the letters "PI" within a diamond - maybe a hallmark?
    - The only engraving I can see on the movement are the letters "S" and "F" with some ticks indicating regulator adjustment direction.

    Name:  DSC_0248.jpg
Views: 1609
Size:  116.2 KB

    Name:  DSC_0250.jpg
Views: 1603
Size:  100.8 KB

    Name:  DSC_0252.jpg
Views: 1597
Size:  190.4 KB

    Name:  DSC_0253.jpg
Views: 1584
Size:  161.0 KB

    Name:  DSC_0255.jpg
Views: 1607
Size:  220.0 KB

    Name:  DSC_0262.jpg
Views: 1566
Size:  185.9 KB

  2. #2
    Member AbslomRob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, Canada
    Posts
    5,315

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    Well, it's not a "swiss fake" as such; definitely Swiss though. That balance wheel is designed to look like a high-end, bimetallic, adjusted balance wheel, but there's no cut in the arms and the I suspect the "screws" are just for show. It does appear to be "fully jeweled", but we'd need to see the dial side of the watch to know for sure. The very use of that term (along with the faux balance) suggest to me that there could well be only 10 jewels. When this was made, "fully Jeweled" would have suggested 15 jewels (fully jeweled to the third wheel), but there's no easy way to determine if the dial side pivots are actually jeweled without dismantaling it. The hands are so horribly mismatched that I have to assume that was the work of a watch-hack looking to cobble it together from whatever spare parts he had lying around in the shop that fit the posts.
    My growing collection of "affordable" vintages: http://www.abslomrob.com

  3. #3
    Member zombaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    OH, USA
    Posts
    34

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    Thanks for the info regarding this pocket watch. It's always interesting finding things like this, even if they're poorly made :)
    2531.80.00, 16200, 215.30.44.21.01.002, 103-0835, 311.30.42.30.01.006

  4. Remove Advertisements
    WatchUSeek.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Zenith Forum Co-moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    17,531

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    Well, I wouldn't call that watch poorly made. Just, perhaps, not as good as it is trying to make out.....

    Hartmut Richter
    twiceaday likes this.

  6. #5
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Costa Blanca Spain
    Posts
    13,406

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    To me, that is a FANTASTIC piece
    The center picture may be on glass - very rare. Civil war?

    You should send a picture to head curator at NAWCC (Carter Harris)
    He can better advise you
    A
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  7. #6
    Member zombaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    OH, USA
    Posts
    34

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    It does look like the center piece is painted on the obverse of the piece of glass (?). If you look close at the 12-1 o'clock area it is separated a little bit. I will look into contacting Carter Harris as you advised. Thanks for the help!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    2531.80.00, 16200, 215.30.44.21.01.002, 103-0835, 311.30.42.30.01.006

  8. #7
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Costa Blanca Spain
    Posts
    13,406

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    Quote Originally Posted by zombaid View Post
    It does look like the center piece is painted on the obverse of the piece of glass (?). If you look close at the 12-1 o'clock area it is separated a little bit. I will look into contacting Carter Harris as you advised. Thanks for the help!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    As I thought and EXTEMELY rare, the Museunm has one very similar on display.
    Yes Carter can help you.
    Regards
    adam
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

    "Failure is not an option" - Gene Kranz
    "Owning a vintage watch is great, understanding where it sits in Horology is magnificent"
    and
    "By Teaching Others, We Teach Ourselves"
    Adam

  9. #8
    Member zombaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    OH, USA
    Posts
    34

    Re: Trying to date an "M.J. Tobias" with an interesting dial

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    As I thought and EXTEMELY rare, the Museunm has one very similar on display.
    Yes Carter can help you.
    Regards
    adam
    I'm emailing him now. Through some quick research on their website I found catalog number 83.82.1271. I believe this is the piece you were referring to that is very similar. You have been most helpful, thank you again!
    2531.80.00, 16200, 215.30.44.21.01.002, 103-0835, 311.30.42.30.01.006

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •