Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

Thread: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

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  1. #1
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    Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Hi there,
    I've attached a couple of photographs of a watch I am thinking of buying ( or trying to ) but thought I would first seek the comments/advice from the Omega experts.
    The dial is signed Brandt and the movement L Brandt & Fere SA, 19 Jewels and Grade CCR - I have no idea what this means.
    I'd be grateful for your comments on this watch.
    PhilD
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  2. #2
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    European railroad grade watch from the early 20th century I'd say. Interesting regulator and motor barrel. I think it's grade CCF which is C (something) chemin de fer.
    Not railroad grade in the US but probably would be in Canada or other parts of the world.
    Thanks for posting.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

  3. #3
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Ray,
    Thanks - do have any idea why the dial was signed Brandt and the movement L Brandt & Fere, rather than Omega ?
    PhilD

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  5. #4
    Member Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    It is grade CCR. 19 jewels RR grade all right. It's in Shugart. Serial number dates it to ca. 1908.
    L. Brandt was the founder of Omega, so I guess it was OK for his successors to use his name. Omega was a fairly new brand back then - started 1894.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

  6. #5

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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Hi,


    Just from Omega site:

    "Official Watch of the Canadian Railways

    The company first supplied the Canadian Railways in 1905 with a "Ls Brandt & Frère SA - Grade CCR" branded pocket watch with a 20"' calibre. Representing the best quality of the time, the watch was water resistant and had a dustproof band at the pendant to protect the movement from dust and humidity. The movement itself was CCR quality, reserved at the time for 19 and 20"' high-precision finely finished official chronometers: it had 19 jewels including 10 with collets; rubies set into screwed gold collets, gold balance screws, jewel-set barrel, index with screw or with graduated index-snail, double steel plate, Breguet balance, pallets and spring of superior quality, barrel stop for large pieces, precision adjustment in five positions and temperatures for a rate deviation of less than one minute per week, with rate certificate on request.

    A new Ls Brandt branded watch and one OMEGA were produced for the Canadian Railways in 1906 and later a Brandt-OMEGA in 1910, a Ls Brandt in 1911 and a watch for the Watch Inspector in 1915."

    The Omega Grades C and D

    Grade C = "C" quality (15/16/17/19 jewels incl. 7 or 8 collets), regulator adjuster with screws or with snail star-wheel adjusted to less than a minute per week; performance certificate on request.

    Grade CC = Fine "C" quality.

    Grade CCC = Very fine "CC" quality for 19 and 20"'

    Grade CCR = Extra fine "CC" quality for 19 and 20"'

    Grade CCCR = "CCR" quality (23 jewels incl. 15 collets) for 19 and 20''' official chronometer.



    Grade D = "D" quality (16/17 jewels incl. 12 collets) for 13 to 20"' official Observatory chronometers, graduated snail regulator, adjusted to less than a minute per month.

    Grade DD = Very fine "D" quality for 18,19 and 20"'

    Grade DR = Extra fine "D" quality for 19 and 20"'

    Grade DDR = Very best quality (23 jewels incl. 18 collets, 2 diamonds on balance) for 19 and 20"' official Observatory chronometers, graduated snail regulator.








  7. #6
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Hi and thanks,
    Never really thought that I would get so much information, so quickly.
    Regards
    PhilD

  8. #7
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Hi -

    Look at the microadjustment on both: working off cams that were probably designed by hand. The DDR grade watch is particularly interesting...

    You just can't find that sort of handwork any more. Thanks for finding these pictures!

    JohnF
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  9. #8
    Member Francois Boucher's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    These "Brandt" movements were made from 1905 approximately. Bill Sohne says that they were labeled "Louis Brandt" to get around Omega Dealer agreements, because dealers selling railroad watches wer different from those that would sell Omega watches in the same country... But you have to remember that "Omega" initially was the name of the 19"' caliber made by Louis Brandt & Frères. It is only later (between 1903-1905...) that the company took the name of Omega. The calibers were exported uncased, and cased in the country where they were sold.

    There were many grades (A, B, C, CC, CCR, CCCR, DR, DDR...) and the fully jewelled and gold-set ("chatons") grades CCR and CCCR were called "Canadian" calibers. This is because most of them were exported to Canada to be used in Railroad chronometers. The Canadian Pacific Railways was the only North American railway company that accepted Swiss movements in their chronometers... Mostly US watch companies provided these official timepieces: Elgin, Illinois, and of course, Waltham.

    More information: here and there.

    From the Omega website:
    Official Watch of the Canadian Railways

    The company first supplied the Canadian Railways in 1905 with a "Ls Brandt & Frère SA - Grade CCR" branded pocket watch with a 20"' calibre. Representing the best quality of the time, the watch was water resistant and had a dustproof band at the pendant to protect the movement from dust and humidity. The movement itself was CCR quality, reserved at the time for 19 and 20"' high-precision finely finished official chronometers: it had 19 jewels including 10 with collets; rubies set into screwed gold collets, gold balance screws, jewel-set barrel, index with screw or with graduated index-snail, double steel plate, Breguet balance, pallets and spring of superior quality, barrel stop for large pieces, precision adjustment in five positions and temperatures for a rate deviation of less than one minute per week, with rate certificate on request.

    A new Ls Brandt branded watch and one OMEGA were produced for the Canadian Railways in 1906 and later a Brandt-OMEGA in 1910, a Ls Brandt in 1911 and a watch for the Watch Inspector in 1915.
    I took these pictures of my CPR chronometer tonight:











    Last edited by Francois Boucher; November 13th, 2008 at 05:03.
    François – Quebec City, QC

  10. #9
    Member Francois Boucher's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Here is another official CPR chronometer: this one is grade CCCR.











    Cased in sterling 925 case back and bezel, gold plated body, by J.B. Knowles, a jeweler in beautiful Kelowna, British Columbia. Three-part, double sunk white enamel dial with light hairlines, with original blue-steel spade hands.

    Cal. 20 LO CCCR NN
    L = Lepine , O = Omega caliber , CCCR = CCR quality (23 jewels incl. 15 collets) for 19 and 20''' official chronometer , NN = New negative time-setting
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Grade C = "C" quality (15/16/17/19 jewels incl. 7 or 8 collets), regulator adjuster with screws or with snail star-wheel adjusted to less than a minute per week.
    Grade CC = Fine "C" quality.
    Grade CCC = Very fine "CC" quality for 19 and 20"'
    Grade CCR = Extra fine "CC" quality for 19 and 20"'
    Grade CCCR = 23 jewels incl. 15 collets for 19 and 20"', official chronometer.

    According to Journey, these are the serial numbers for these chronometers:

    19"' CCCR:
    2,513,844-2,514,023: 180 Lépines LO in 1906
    2,516,364-2,516,543: 180 Lépines S0 in 1905
    3,225,992-3,226,151: 180 Lépines LO in 1910-1912
    3,658,532-3,658,711: 180 Lépines LO CCR NN, but engraved CCCR in ca. 1911

    20"' CCCR:
    2,504,652-2,504,831: 180 Lépines LO in 1905-1906
    2,520,504-2,520,683: 180 Lépines SO in 1906
    3,225,792-3,225,991: 180 Lépines LO in 1908
    3,666,458-3,666,637: 180 Lépines LO in ca. 1911
    François – Quebec City, QC

  11. #10
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    Re: Vintage Brandt Pocket Watch

    Real nice railroad watches Francois Boucher I have never saw a Brandt pocket watch before nice watches.

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