Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

# Thread: Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

1. ## Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

The American Beauty

thanks for looking
Ntinos

2. ## Re: Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

Hi.
Very nice watch
I hope someone can advise more. I am especially interested in Loisser Inner Terminal Hairspring

I found this from poster Gene Furry - watchmaker
"There are not really 'differences' between Breguet and Lossier. It is more of an issue of association of the two. Brequet is most closely associated with the actual 'overcoil' itself of a hairspring while Lossier is more specifically the type of curve and/or termination style. A Breguet overcoil may have a Lossier curve and or another fairly common style known as a Phillips curve. Both these are more of a tweak or specific shape vs. pinning relationship of the actual overcoil itself. By pinning I'm referring to the termination or the actual placement of the hairspring stud at the very end of the hairspring.

Lossier was basically a mathematician and he perfected what's known as Lossier's Rules. These rules relate most generally to a relationship of points at which a hairspring is 'pinned' with regard to the pinning point's radial, positional relationship to the pinning point of the inner coil at the collet attachment. This "inner terminal" terminology is obviously referencing the most 'inner' coil of the haispring and it's associated termination point where it is attached to the collet that fits on the staff. Most of this mathematical theory is aimed the actual degrees of excursion, (amplitude), that a balance makes in both directions after passing through center. Of course, this is really about accuracy and something called isochronism. Simply put it's an effort or theory designed to ensure that a mechanical watch hopefully maintains it's accuracy as the mainspring powers down to lower levels wherein the obvious lower power levels would potentially be interpreted into a 'lesser' amplitude of the balance wheel. A lesser amplitude would be exhibited as an actual 'gain' in the time train since the balance is passing through center more frequently.

I wouldn't get too excited about all this as much of it is theory. Some holds true, some does not. Many a mathematician has been involved in the early design days of watches, but unfortunately there are many other factors 'in play' inside a mechanical watch, and many of these factors cannot simply be dealt with via mathematical calculations. One of the most variable influences inside a mechanical watch relates to the oil, oiling, etc., and math doesn't generally help out much with oil/oiling.

I don't know the answer to your question about how many models of Walthams actually fit into the "inner terminal" style of hairspring, but I can tell you that the hairsprings in 'many' watches fit into the category of having a Lossier curve, or they at least exhibit that they have been designed and pinned 'somewhat' pursuant to Lossier's Rules. Hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Gene"

Interesting stuff
Regards

3. ## Re: Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

Very nice! Classy piece!

4.

5. ## Re: Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007
Hi.
Very nice watch
I hope someone can advise more. I am especially interested in Loisser Inner Terminal Hairspring

I found this from poster Gene Furry - watchmaker
"There are not really 'differences' between Breguet and Lossier. It is more of an issue of association of the two. Brequet is most closely associated with the actual 'overcoil' itself of a hairspring while Lossier is more specifically the type of curve and/or termination style. A Breguet overcoil may have a Lossier curve and or another fairly common style known as a Phillips curve. Both these are more of a tweak or specific shape vs. pinning relationship of the actual overcoil itself. By pinning I'm referring to the termination or the actual placement of the hairspring stud at the very end of the hairspring.

Lossier was basically a mathematician and he perfected what's known as Lossier's Rules. These rules relate most generally to a relationship of points at which a hairspring is 'pinned' with regard to the pinning point's radial, positional relationship to the pinning point of the inner coil at the collet attachment. This "inner terminal" terminology is obviously referencing the most 'inner' coil of the haispring and it's associated termination point where it is attached to the collet that fits on the staff. Most of this mathematical theory is aimed the actual degrees of excursion, (amplitude), that a balance makes in both directions after passing through center. Of course, this is really about accuracy and something called isochronism. Simply put it's an effort or theory designed to ensure that a mechanical watch hopefully maintains it's accuracy as the mainspring powers down to lower levels wherein the obvious lower power levels would potentially be interpreted into a 'lesser' amplitude of the balance wheel. A lesser amplitude would be exhibited as an actual 'gain' in the time train since the balance is passing through center more frequently.

I wouldn't get too excited about all this as much of it is theory. Some holds true, some does not. Many a mathematician has been involved in the early design days of watches, but unfortunately there are many other factors 'in play' inside a mechanical watch, and many of these factors cannot simply be dealt with via mathematical calculations. One of the most variable influences inside a mechanical watch relates to the oil, oiling, etc., and math doesn't generally help out much with oil/oiling.

I don't know the answer to your question about how many models of Walthams actually fit into the "inner terminal" style of hairspring, but I can tell you that the hairsprings in 'many' watches fit into the category of having a Lossier curve, or they at least exhibit that they have been designed and pinned 'somewhat' pursuant to Lossier's Rules. Hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Gene"

Interesting stuff
Regards
An interesting post. It shines some light in the black magic of hairsprings.

I wonder if anyone has built a model of hairspring technology with modern modeling techniques? It might be able to account for some of the factors Gene Furry refers to and could, theoretically, be useful in evaluating alternative designs.

It would have to be some academic's project as I can't see anyone but ETA being able to exploit it and I suspect ETA does not perceive itself under pressure to explore alternative design tools. (But maybe that is just my negative feelings about how monopoly businesses seem to operate. Possibly ETA has farseeing management and they are avoiding these mistakes...)

In any case, enlightening again! Thanks for taking time to add to the forum. We all benefit.

6. ## Re: Waltham Vanguard 16s, 23j up & down indicator

Originally Posted by Eeeb
An interesting post. It shines some light in the black magic of hairsprings.

In any case, enlightening again! Thanks for taking time to add to the forum. We all benefit.

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