Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

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  1. #1
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    Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    I promise that I have tried very hard on this watch and have made some progress but now need some help.

    This is a Silver Trench watch with a Swan Hallmark which apparently means it was imported into France from a country without customs conventions. Amongst these countries were Russia, China, USA and Germany.

    Another hallmark on the inner case are the letters L+G in an oval, I have failed with trying to identify this, does anyone know?

    For the movement I have an idea it may be a schild movement but I am not sure. The only mark on the movment is a capital A.

    The watch winder has a "logo" which again has defeated me but does anybody recognise this.

    Areas for help are the L+G hallmark, the movement and the winder logo.

    A photo of the Swan hallmark is given to help any other watchseek members that may come across it in the future.

    Thanks everyone
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  2. #2
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Neil, the hallmark to the right of the L+G looks like a Swiss mark of the upright Lion,
    the swan as you say is French import mark.
    Swiss trench watch with an AS movement, certainly looks like an A.S, it would be marked dial side.

    These were often sold through retailers who printed their own name on the dials and these often
    wore off during the eons as the names weren't 'fixed' with the enamel.
    Watch producers who wanted to be known, branded their watches on the dials cases and movements,
    whoever put your watch together from case, movement dial and hands could well be lost in the mists of time.

  3. #3
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Radger thank you I will get the microscope out and try to get a better close up of the "Swiss" hallmark next to the L+G.

    What you have posted makes sense, appreciated

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  5. #4
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Did I say upright lion???

    I always thought it was supposed to be a Lion but it's actually a bear as can be seen on the
    page I linked, it's difficult to make out on your pics but the cartouche looks very similar with
    the notch to the right.
    If it is this hallmark, it was used on Swiss silver to denote .875 purity and above between 1882 & 1934.

    http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks.html
    Last edited by radger; December 10th, 2011 at 09:31. Reason: add link

  6. #5
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Radger

    I knew what you meant, no problem. I have taken a good look through a loupe and also used the microscope to try and get an image.

    It does not look like a Swiss Bear but more like a Bird on a Branch or Perch. Photo is not too clever but the best I could get. If the maker was Swiss the Swan mark would not have to be used since Switzerland did have a customs convention with France.

    Does the L+G does ring anyones memory or knowledge bank. Thanks again

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  7. #6
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    I can't find the L+G mark anywhere. You could try specialist silver collector's fora - such as www.silver-collector.com :: Index
    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects."

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    Please don't PM me to ask for a valuation - I won't attempt one.

  8. #7
    Member radger's Avatar
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilA View Post
    Radger

    I knew what you meant, no problem. I have taken a good look through a loupe and also used the microscope to try and get an image.

    It does not look like a Swiss Bear but more like a Bird on a Branch or Perch. Photo is not too clever but the best I could get. If the maker was Swiss the Swan mark would not have to be used since Switzerland did have a customs convention with France.

    Does the L+G does ring anyones memory or knowledge bank. Thanks again
    Can find nothing on the L+G mark and I don't recognise the bird like mark if it is indeed a hallmark.


    You say the French only used the import mark if they had no customs treaty! Do you have a reference
    for this information and do you know if it also applied to imported and unmarked silver from countries with which
    they had a customs treaty?

  9. #8
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Radger apologies for the delay in replyng, man flu struck me down.

    This is the French reference for 1st July 1893 with a translation (not perfect), as you will see only 4 countries are mentioned.

    Le cygnet s’applique depuis le 1st juillet 1893 sur les Montres toute origine et les bijoux provenant d’Allemagne, Chine, Etats-Unis, Russie. Ce poincon s’applique aussi sur les ouvrages aux titres legaux provenant des ventes publiques et don’t on ne peut pas determiner la provenance.
    Les droits de guarantie ne sont pas restitues en cas de reexporation des overages marques de ce poincon.

    "The cygnet applies from 1st July 1893 on watches and jewelry all sources from Germany, China, USA, and Russia. This punch also applies to works of legal title from the auctions do not and cannot determine the source.
    Warranty rights are not returned if the works reexporation brands of punch.

    The hallmarks, an Owl for Gold and the Swan for Silver seem to be specifically for these countries and not those that had a customs treaty with France.

    I may be going up a blind alley but I cannot see China or the USA being involved.

    The movement is definately an Adolph Schild (ID under the Dial) so I am assuming that it was most likley that a German watch maker that bought the movement from Switzerland completed manufacture and sold into France."

    May be completely wrong of course.

    I have also tried the silvercollectors forum for the L+G and "Bird" hallmarks but no luck there.
    Last edited by NeilA; January 3rd, 2012 at 08:15.

  10. #9
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    Re: Watch Imported to France Hallmarks, Movement Maker Help Please

    Thanks for that Neil.

    The marks are a mystery, as is much when concerned with old watches.

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