Attitudes toward homages
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  1. #1
    Member WrnrG's Avatar
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    Attitudes toward homages

    Yesterday I was on Instagram checking up on the latest bust from fakewatchbusta and the rolex_enforcer, while being thoroughly entertained by their exposures of guys on Instagram flaunting replicas as though they were the real deal, the rolex_enforcer started an argument with one of his followers by calling an Ancon X-35 a fake SevenFriday, referring to the P-series SevenFriday watches.

    Ancon:
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    SevenFriday:
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    The actual post was to expose a guy for posing with a replica Hublot in front of a Bugatti that apparently belongs to a celebrity and claiming to own the genuine items. The rolex_enforcer took a shot at the Ancon watch to which one of his followers took a bit of exception. The commenter pointed out that the Ancon is a homage to the SevenFriday, copying the dial but making the case different, to which the rolex_enforcer replied, "you call it homage .. I call it a knockoff." Later also commenting that Ancon "ripped off" the SevenFriday design before SevenFriday had a chance to release the watch.

    I've also seen some flame wars break out on the WRUW threads about people wearing cheap homages. Also, just about every dive watch is guilty of "ripping off" the submariner.

    I own a couple homages. I have a Rodina Small Seconds (Nomos Tangente homage or ripoff) and a sterile dial Pam homage (both Chinese). I live on a budget and my most expensive watch is my Hamilton Khaki Conservation that retails for $1,200. I obviously don't have a problem with homages, I may not be able to afford a Rolex at the moment and I otherwise don't love the Nomos or the Panerai enough to spend that much money on those particular brands, but I like the styles enough at $100. I would get a Submariner or a Speedmaster if I had the money to blow.

    So what are your views on homages in general? Do you think they are a great way to try styles you don't want to invest in just yet or cannot afford or cannot justify spending that money on? Or do you think, like the rolex_enforcer, that they are ripoffs and fakes and should be treated with the same shame as replicas?
    Damn it! Am I late again!?

  2. #2
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    If there're real, fine, but the rest are just rank knockoffs.
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  3. #3
    Member X2-Elijah's Avatar
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    I don't like em, because in my eyes, it's still companies profiting off of another designer's work. It's not about giving a cheap way for a customer to wear xyz, or any of that fluff, it's literally "Oh hey, Rolex Sub is such an iconic design! Let's make something just like it for chips and not waste time on designing at all!".

    I don't think they are as 'morally wrong' as outright fakes/replicas, because those also aim to deceive people into thinking it's actually X, but I still don't like 'em because of that design-ripoff aspect.
    It's a matter of principle - I'm just thinking along these lines: "Oh? You didn't actually design that yourselves? Well, then I'm not going to actually give you any money for it".
    I get it that good design is hard, and that some watches do have absolutely iconic, great looks. So what? One of a watch company's main tasks is to design new watches (imo). If you can't do it, hire new designers/artists, or get out of a business you don't belong in.


    And yes, there might be some homages out there are are truly paying respects to an iconic look by recreating the same feel with different design elements - those I'm totally fine with. But the vast, vast, vast majority of what people call 'homages' on WUS are simply shameful design ripoffs with minimal changes to avoid getting sued / to allow for cheaper parts/assembly. The countless PAM ripoffs are a great example (remember how WUS even had to explicitly instantiate a rule banning any pictures with these clones sporting the 'MM' logo?), as is that Rodina knockoff. Sorry, but that's an explicitly obvious design ripoff, no ifs, ands or buts about it...


    Edit: As for the Sevendfriday vs. Ancon.. I think I'd call it more of a design ripoff than a homage. The dials are extremely similar there (and given that the dial has such an explicitly unusual, complicated design, it's more prominently copied) - just compare the angles, the micro-dials, the lines and relative proportions, even the printing of the outer tracks.. All the same!

    Anyways. I bet this is going to get locked sometime soon.
    Last edited by X2-Elijah; October 24th, 2014 at 07:26.
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  5. #4
    Member WrnrG's Avatar
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    Quote Originally Posted by X2-Elijah View Post
    I don't like em, because in my eyes, it's still companies profiting off of another designer's work. It's not about giving a cheap way for a customer to wear xyz, or any of that fluff, it's literally "Oh hey, Rolex Sub is such an iconic design! Let's make something just like it for chips and not waste time on designing at all!".

    I don't think they are as 'morally wrong' as outright fakes/replicas, because those also aim to deceive people into thinking it's actually X, but I still don't like 'em because of that design-ripoff aspect.
    It's a matter of principle - I'm just thinking along these lines: "Oh? You didn't actually design that yourselves? Well, then I'm not going to actually give you any money for it".
    I get it that good design is hard, and that some watches do have absolutely iconic, great looks. So what? One of a watch company's main tasks is to design new watches (imo). If you can't do it, hire new designers/artists, or get out of a business you don't belong in.


    And yes, there might be some homages out there are are truly paying respects to an iconic look by recreating the same feel with different design elements - those I'm totally fine with. But the vast, vast, vast majority of what people call 'homages' on WUS are simply shameful design ripoffs with minimal changes to avoid getting sued / to allow for cheaper parts/assembly. The countless PAM ripoffs are a great example (remember how WUS even had to explicitly instantiate a rule banning any pictures with these clones sporting the 'MM' logo?), as is that Rodina knockoff. Sorry, but that's an explicitly obvious design ripoff, no ifs, ands or buts about it...


    Edit: As for the Sevendfriday vs. Ancon.. I think I'd call it more of a design ripoff than a homage. The dials are extremely similar there (and given that the dial has such an explicitly unusual, complicated design, it's more prominently copied) - just compare the angles, the micro-dials, the lines and relative proportions, even the printing of the outer tracks.. All the same!

    Anyways. I bet this is going to get locked sometime soon.
    You don't have to apologize to me, I agree that they are basically knockoffs and I don't get easily offended. I had a point I was going to make before I hit the reply button but I seem to have forgotten it, hahaha!

    I think I was going to lead it away from those Chinese "knockoffs" to more traditional "homages." Like comparing the AP ROO to the Hublot Big Bang and the PP Nautilus, all respected or at least two of those brands are respected, and at least two of them ripped off one of those designs and just made some tweaks. Stowa has ripped off the Tangente while Steinhart, Seiko and countless others have ripped off Rolex. And who is the original designer of the pilot or field watch? How many different ways are there to design a dive watch with a rotating bezel?

    I'm just curious about what others think about these matters, not trying to start any controversy. Although, it may be a controversial topic.
    X2-Elijah and Inca Bloc like this.
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  6. #5
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    Got no problem whatsoever, so long as it doesn't falsify the brand or country of origin. I wrapped my lunch up today in homage Glad™ wrap.
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    I don't agree with the term homage. To call a spade a spade, they are copies.

  8. #7
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    Quote Originally Posted by Domo View Post
    Got no problem whatsoever, so long as it doesn't falsify the brand or country of origin. I wrapped my lunch up today in homage Glad™ wrap.
    Reynolds should sue.
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    Quote Originally Posted by WrnrG View Post
    Like comparing the AP ROO to the Hublot Big Bang and the PP Nautilus, all respected or at least two of those brands are respected, and at least two of them ripped off one of those designs and just made some tweaks.
    Actually the AP RO and PP Nautilus were designed by the same man and neither are considered any level of homage to each other. The Hublot story is interesting, you should watch the JC Biver interview on Hodinkee, rather interesting.

    For me I have no respect for companies that build mainly or solely so called homages. In the end the people who make them are not paying tribute to anything but their lack of imagination, fear of failing and certainly their wallet. Sure every external rotating bezel dive watch is cribbing off the Sub and Fifty Fathoms but when you use the same fonts, same hands and same indices in a similar case it is just a copy to SELL watches. I see tons of inexpensive watches that have good and great designs that aren't aping an iconic and/or expensive watch. I would like a Ferrari but I am not going to pay the price of admission or cost to own, but I wouldn't dream of driving a Fiero with a body kit either. In the end I don't judge people that wear homages outside of the fact I think they are not using their imagination to find all the great watches that exist in every price range that aren't a blatant rip off. I look at Lew and Huey, OK he treads a little close with his newest "Monaco homage" but in general his watches are pretty interesting and rather original and the prices are good.

    I am sure I own some ripped off designs of some things in my life but it is only due to my ignorance of the original design. I also think that companies that do nothing but homages do us all a disservice, I am sure there are designers out there that could give them great designs and possibly "make" their brand. I will also accept and agree there is a lot of cribbing going on in the watch community even in the exclusive brands but they almost always bring their design language to the table and though it may borrow extensively from brand X, it still looks very much like a brand Y.
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  10. #9
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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    Quote Originally Posted by Domo View Post
    Got no problem whatsoever, so long as it doesn't falsify the brand or country of origin. I wrapped my lunch up today in homage Glad™ wrap.
    Ha. We should start calling homages generics

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    Re: Attitudes toward homages

    Quote Originally Posted by WrnrG View Post
    Reynolds should sue.
    Technically Reynolds wrap is aluminum foil. Glad & Saran are PVC or LDPE and Saran wrap was the original. I have noticed Saran wrap is used as the "proprietary eponym" in the US (like Q-tip for cotton swab) but in the land down under they seem to use Glad instead of Saran both of which are available in the US. Neither, here nor there since I see it as a much different discussion.
    WrnrG, JamesGu208 and dbostedo like this.

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