Hamilton or Seiko? - Page 7

View Poll Results: Hamilton or Seiko?

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110. This poll is closed
  • Hamilton

    49 44.55%
  • Seiko

    61 55.45%
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Thread: Hamilton or Seiko?

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  1. #61
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavestory View Post
    I have this already.
    If you already have the Stowa Marine Chrono than the Seiko is the easy choice. It's easily worth the 2k regardless of what the "I can't pay 2k for a Seiko" crowd says, the movement alone makes the watch worth it.


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  2. #62
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Dowling View Post
    If you already have the Stowa Marine Chrono than the Seiko is the easy choice. It's easily worth the 2k regardless of what the "I can't pay 2k for a Seiko" crowd says, the movement alone makes the watch worth it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yuppers. The Hamilton would just be another elegant, vintage-y chrono with a nice design.

    I'd totally see getting the Hamilton if the goal was to build a collection of similar watches, or if the plan was to sell the Stowa, but these two are too redundant.

  3. #63
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavestory View Post

    [pics deleted]

    Would you pay $2000 for either one of the watches above?
    If yes, which one would you pick and why?

    Thanks.
    Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
    ― Rita Mae Brown, Alma Mater


    I'd pick the Hamilton simply because it looks better to my eye.

    I probably wouldn't buy either of those watches, but that has more to do with me than it does with whether I think either watch is worth $2K. I hate buying much of anything in the $1500 - $5K or so price range. I don't mind spending more occasionally, and I never mind spending less. LOL Every watch I've come across in that range involves some sort of "feature vs price" (tangible or intangible) trade-off. Below that price range, I don't expect more than just a nifty watch to enjoy. At higher price points, the trade-offs begin to disappear, which I find more to my liking than wrangling with myself over what I will forgo and what I won't.

    That said, I haven't come across any bad watches/poor watch choices in that price range. Also, to its credit, Hamilton have more or less held steady its pricing for its higher price point pieces. ( The Harrison Ford Hamilton Watches | aBlogtoWatch , Hamilton Khaki Pilot Pioneer Auto Chrono Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch ) I like Hamilton quite a lot because they do offer a good product at sane prices.

    I think the Hamilton you pictured is a decent buy if it comes in at or below $2K, particularly given that it has a Valjoux movement inside, which is a very important movement in annals of the watch industry. It's great movement in its own right. It's not the most sophisticated chrono engine one can buy (lacks jumping minute counter), but it is a movement any chronograph collector should have represented in their collection.

    I also think the Hamilton is a good value in light of and comparison with the price points, and with the substantive content, of other popular brands that carry effectively the same movement (Swiss Watches with the Valjoux 7750 - Bernard Watch). Another factor that IMO makes the Hamilton a good value is that as Hamilton will implement it in the Khaki Navy Pioneer, it'll carry a few improvements over a basic 7750 (https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/sw...ton-h-21-h-31/).

    Maintenance:
    I don't imagine this will be critical to your decision, but it's worth knowing before you decide:

    You can probably save a few dollars letting a local watchmaker (prices will vary by locality and watchmaker) handle service seeing as the H-21, 7750-based movement, isn't so different than a standard 7750 that has been around for longer than many WUS members have been alive.

    Hamilton Watch Company:
    In terms of content and horological relevance, I think a Valjoux-based Hamilton is a reasonable choice from among contemporary and comparable offerings available in the marketplace. Plenty of other folks have discussed why, so I won't.


    Nice as the H-21 is, I think an unmodified 7750-inside watch is also a boon to any collection. (No need to rush to find one; there's no shortage of them to be had.) That said, I doubt I'd look to Hamilton to get one.

    If one is buying a Hamilton for the sake of the brand itself and its history, I wouldn't point them to many, if any, post-Swatch acquisition Hamilton (1984 and later -- Hamilton - Watch Wiki, The Best Watches And Watch Brands) IMO, Hamilton watches made in the SSIH period (1971 - 1984) harken back to Hamilton's roots, although I'd go for an early 1970s Pulsar rather than a Hamilton from that period. (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collec...t/nmah_1173538) I'd suggest looking for pre-1969 Hamiltons if one is buying to obtain a piece that fully reflects the esteemed watchmaking company that Hamilton was prior to the "Quartz Revolution." I think one can find some intrinsically nice and undervalued vintage Hamiltons.

    Of course Seiko has plenty of history of its own. I don't know too much about Seiko or have many handly links I can quickly give you re: Seiko. Plus, since I'd choose the Hamilton, my thoughts re: Seiko don't really matter since my point for posting all this stuff is to explain why I'd choose the Hamilton, not why I wuoldn't choose the Seiko. <winks> I am sure there's nothing wrong with the Seiko. I just don't like its looks.

    Sidebar -- Exception to "no bad choices:"
    The only "bad choices" (from the POV of a watchie/collector) I have come across are the offerings of pure marketing companies like Stauer and others like them; forget in-house...best as I can tell, Stauer doesn't even so much as assemble purchased watch parts to create a cased watch in a factory of its own. At one point in 2013, they were selling a Towson Watch Company watch on their site for $5K that TWC offered on its own site for $3K. I think Daniel Stieger is another company like Stauer that orders product from a factory, has the factory apply their name to the dial, and sells it.

    All the best.


    In the sciences the authority of thousands of opinions is not worth as much as one tiny spark of reason in an individual man. Besides, the modern observations deprive all former writers of any authority, since if they had seen what we see, they would have judged as we judge.
    ― Galileo Galilei, Frammenti e lettere
    Cavestory, damonism and ryan1524 like this.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    Cheers,
    Tony



    Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment.
    ― A.A. Milne







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  5. #64
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    I would not pay 2k for either of them. However I would get the Hamilton over the Seiko. Seiko's quite busy (even though I've a similar one) and asymmetric with its coloring. The Hamilton is more towards my tastes (simple dress dials). That said, the Hamilton would need a new strap.
    Current Collection - | Ball | Bvlgari | Casio | Citizen | Credor | Girard-Perregaux | Graham | Gübelin | Hamilton | Jaeger-LeCoultre | Longines | Minase | Mühle Glashütte | NOMOS Glashütte | Omega | Rolex | Seiko | Swatch | Undone | Vacheron Constantin | Victorinox Swiss Army |
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  6. #65
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
    Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
    ― Rita Mae Brown, Alma Mater


    I'd pick the Hamilton simply because it looks better to my eye.

    I probably wouldn't buy either of those watches, but that has more to do with me than it does with whether I think either watch is worth $2K. I hate buying much of anything in the $1500 - $5K or so price range. I don't mind spending more occasionally, and I never mind spending less. LOL Every watch I've come across in that range involves some sort of "feature vs price" (tangible or intangible) trade-off. Below that price range, I don't expect more than just a nifty watch to enjoy. At higher price points, the trade-offs begin to disappear, which I find more to my liking than wrangling with myself over what I will forgo and what I won't.

    That said, I haven't come across any bad watches/poor watch choices in that price range. Also, to its credit, Hamilton have more or less held steady its pricing for its higher price point pieces. ( The Harrison Ford Hamilton Watches | aBlogtoWatch , Hamilton Khaki Pilot Pioneer Auto Chrono Watch Hands-On | aBlogtoWatch ) I like Hamilton quite a lot because they do offer a good product at sane prices.

    I think the Hamilton you pictured is a decent buy if it comes in at or below $2K, particularly given that it has a Valjoux movement inside, which is a very important movement in annals of the watch industry. It's great movement in its own right. It's not the most sophisticated chrono engine one can buy (lacks jumping minute counter), but it is a movement any chronograph collector should have represented in their collection.

    I also think the Hamilton is a good value in light of and comparison with the price points, and with the substantive content, of other popular brands that carry effectively the same movement (Swiss Watches with the Valjoux 7750 - Bernard Watch). Another factor that IMO makes the Hamilton a good value is that as Hamilton will implement it in the Khaki Navy Pioneer, it'll carry a few improvements over a basic 7750 (https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/sw...ton-h-21-h-31/).

    Maintenance:
    I don't imagine this will be critical to your decision, but it's worth knowing before you decide:

    You can probably save a few dollars letting a local watchmaker (prices will vary by locality and watchmaker) handle service seeing as the H-21, 7750-based movement, isn't so different than a standard 7750 that has been around for longer than many WUS members have been alive.

    Hamilton Watch Company:
    In terms of content and horological relevance, I think a Valjoux-based Hamilton is a reasonable choice from among contemporary and comparable offerings available in the marketplace. Plenty of other folks have discussed why, so I won't.


    Nice as the H-21 is, I think an unmodified 7750-inside watch is also a boon to any collection. (No need to rush to find one; there's no shortage of them to be had.) That said, I doubt I'd look to Hamilton to get one.

    If one is buying a Hamilton for the sake of the brand itself and its history, I wouldn't point them to many, if any, post-Swatch acquisition Hamilton (1984 and later -- Hamilton - Watch Wiki, The Best Watches And Watch Brands) IMO, Hamilton watches made in the SSIH period (1971 - 1984) harken back to Hamilton's roots, although I'd go for an early 1970s Pulsar rather than a Hamilton from that period. (Pulsar Electronic Wristwatch | National Museum of American History) I'd suggest looking for pre-1969 Hamiltons if one is buying to obtain a piece that fully reflects the esteemed watchmaking company that Hamilton was prior to the "Quartz Revolution." I think one can find some intrinsically nice and undervalued vintage Hamiltons.

    Of course Seiko has plenty of history of its own. I don't know too much about Seiko or have many handly links I can quickly give you re: Seiko. Plus, since I'd choose the Hamilton, my thoughts re: Seiko don't really matter since my point for posting all this stuff is to explain why I'd choose the Hamilton, not why I wuoldn't choose the Seiko. <winks> I am sure there's nothing wrong with the Seiko. I just don't like its looks.

    Sidebar -- Exception to "no bad choices:"
    The only "bad choices" (from the POV of a watchie/collector) I have come across are the offerings of pure marketing companies like Stauer and others like them; forget in-house...best as I can tell, Stauer doesn't even so much as assemble purchased watch parts to create a cased watch in a factory of its own. At one point in 2013, they were selling a Towson Watch Company watch on their site for $5K that TWC offered on its own site for $3K. I think Daniel Stieger is another company like Stauer that orders product from a factory, has the factory apply their name to the dial, and sells it.

    All the best.


    In the sciences the authority of thousands of opinions is not worth as much as one tiny spark of reason in an individual man. Besides, the modern observations deprive all former writers of any authority, since if they had seen what we see, they would have judged as we judge.
    ― Galileo Galilei, Frammenti e lettere
    thanks for taking the time to write such a valuable input. appreciate it!
    tony20009 and ryan1524 like this.

  7. #66
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavestory View Post
    thanks for taking the time to write such a valuable input. appreciate it!
    You're welcome.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    Cheers,
    Tony



    Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment.
    ― A.A. Milne







  8. #67
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax_Drakos View Post
    Agree with point #1 and point #2.

    With respect to point #1, I think that Seiko looks fantastic. I'm very close to pulling the trigger on that watch.

    With respect to point #2, I completely agree. If some well-respected Swiss watchmaker came out with a chronograph that had three vertical clutches, the watch press and WIS would drool all over themselves with excitement about what a magnificent breakthrough has been achieved in horology. They would talk about what a value such a watch is at $10k. This reminds me of the people whose argument -- whose ONLY argument -- against Grand Seiko is that it's got the word "Seiko" on the dial.
    perhaps just me, but the accuracy rating on it really really is a turnoff at that price point. I don't expect GS accuracy but +25/-15 sec/day just doesn't seem right. If I'm not mistaken the ETA would be something along the liens of +/- 15. I get that we're not talking about life changing events here and odds are against the extremes being teh real world results, but still +25 seconds for a 2,000 dollar watch just seems beyond unacceptable. But perhaps just me.

  9. #68
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by DustinS View Post
    perhaps just me, but the accuracy rating on it really really is a turnoff at that price point. I don't expect GS accuracy but +25/-15 sec/day just doesn't seem right. If I'm not mistaken the ETA would be something along the liens of +/- 15. I get that we're not talking about life changing events here and odds are against the extremes being teh real world results, but still +25 seconds for a 2,000 dollar watch just seems beyond unacceptable. But perhaps just me.
    Not entirely mistaken, imprecise is what I'd call it. <winks>

    There are multiple grades of ETA's movements and not all movements are available in all grades. Below are three common ETA movements and their accuracy as stated by ETA Swiss Movement » ETA Movement Grades :

    ETA 2824-2

    This is the most basic ETA movement we’re all familiar with. It’s used in a ton of different watch brands and is a very good 25 jewel movement. There are four grades of movement for this watch.

    • Standard – Average variance of +/- 12 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 30 seconds per day. Two adjustment positions.
    • Elaborated – Average variance of +/- 7 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 30 seconds per day. Three adjustment positions.
    • Top – Average variance of +/- 4 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 10 seconds per day. Five adjustment positions. Improved barrel spring, shock protection, pallet stones, balance wheel, hair spring and regulator mechanism.
    • Chronometer – Must meet COSC standards. Serial numbered. Highly decorative. Average variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Improved barrel spring, shock protection, pallet stones, balance wheel, hair spring and regulator mechanism.

    ETA 2892
    This movement is an upgraded newer movement from the ETA lineup. It’s considered to be on-par with Rolex in-house movements. It’s an automatic self winding 21 jewel movement with three grades.

    • Elaborated – Average variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 20 seconds per day. Four adjustment positions.
    • Top – Average variance of +/- 4 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 15 seconds per day. Five adjustment positions. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.
    • Chronometer – Must meet COSC standards. Serial numbered. Highly decorative. Average variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.

    Valjoux 7750
    The Valjoux/ETA 7550 movement is the most common chronograph movement. It’s cam operated unlike the traditional column wheel mechanism. The movement is an automatic self winding 25 jewel movement. It can support day/date/month/moon calendars. This movement is rated via three grades.

    • Elaborated – Average variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 15 seconds per day. Three adjustment positions.
    • Top – Average variance of +/- 4 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 10 seconds per day. Five adjustment positions. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.
    • Chronometer – Must meet COSC standards. Serial numbered. Highly decorative. Average variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.
    I don't know what movement is inside the Seiko the OP pictured. I also don't know of a source for reliable information on the accuracy of whatever movement is inside it or any other Seiko watch. Perhaps you or someone else does???

    All the best.


    Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.
    ― Henry David Thoreau, Letters to Various Persons, [Letter to Harrison Blake; November 16, 1857]

    PS
    (...and no, I'm not following you around to pick on you and your comments.)
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    Cheers,
    Tony



    Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment.
    ― A.A. Milne







  10. #69
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
    Not entirely mistaken, imprecise is what I'd call it. <winks>

    There are multiple grades of ETA's movements and not all movements are available in all grades. Below are three common ETA movements and their accuracy as stated by ETA Swiss Movement » ETA Movement Grades :
    ETA 2824-2

    This is the most basic ETA movement we’re all familiar with. It’s used in a ton of different watch brands and is a very good 25 jewel movement. There are four grades of movement for this watch.

    • Standard – Average variance of +/- 12 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 30 seconds per day. Two adjustment positions.
    • Elaborated – Average variance of +/- 7 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 30 seconds per day. Three adjustment positions.
    • Top – Average variance of +/- 4 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 10 seconds per day. Five adjustment positions. Improved barrel spring, shock protection, pallet stones, balance wheel, hair spring and regulator mechanism.
    • Chronometer – Must meet COSC standards. Serial numbered. Highly decorative. Average variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Improved barrel spring, shock protection, pallet stones, balance wheel, hair spring and regulator mechanism.

    ETA 2892
    This movement is an upgraded newer movement from the ETA lineup. It’s considered to be on-par with Rolex in-house movements. It’s an automatic self winding 21 jewel movement with three grades.

    • Elaborated – Average variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 20 seconds per day. Four adjustment positions.
    • Top – Average variance of +/- 4 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 15 seconds per day. Five adjustment positions. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.
    • Chronometer – Must meet COSC standards. Serial numbered. Highly decorative. Average variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.

    Valjoux 7750
    The Valjoux/ETA 7550 movement is the most common chronograph movement. It’s cam operated unlike the traditional column wheel mechanism. The movement is an automatic self winding 25 jewel movement. It can support day/date/month/moon calendars. This movement is rated via three grades.

    • Elaborated – Average variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 15 seconds per day. Three adjustment positions.
    • Top – Average variance of +/- 4 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 10 seconds per day. Five adjustment positions. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.
    • Chronometer – Must meet COSC standards. Serial numbered. Highly decorative. Average variance of -4/+6 seconds per day. Maximum variance of +/- 5 seconds per day. Upgraded pallet stones, balance wheel, hairspring, and regulator mechanism.
    I don't know what movement is inside the Seiko the OP pictured. I also don't know of a source for reliable information on the accuracy of whatever movement is inside it or any other Seiko watch. Perhaps you or someone else does???

    All the best.


    Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.
    ― Henry David Thoreau, Letters to Various Persons, [Letter to Harrison Blake; November 16, 1857]

    PS
    (...and no, I'm not following you around to pick on you and your comments.)
    I suppose I could have elaborated, but I was assuming the Hamilton was using the 7700 elaborate grade movement. Thus I cited that movement's accuracy. I am however not positive that's the movement or the grade used in the Hamilton.

    SEIKO BRIGHTZ Automatic SDGZ013 500pcs Limited Edition | seiyajapan.com

    I've seen the same accuracy specs on the Seiko from multiple sources, but not directly from Seiko (being JDM only making that difficult). 8R48 being the movement.

    As $2,000 is perhaps not going to turn up many COSC grade chronos I would not expect Seiko to be at that level, but it would not surprise me to see the top grades in this price range and thus the Seiko while very good looking, and offering very nice additional features in their movement, comes up to me a bit short by not having tighter accuracy specs. I got a lot of value in accuracy when comparing mechanical movements and I realize many are far more tolerant given the nature of mechanicals.
    tony20009 likes this.

  11. #70
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    Re: Hamilton or Seiko?

    Quote Originally Posted by DustinS View Post
    I suppose I could have elaborated, but I was assuming the Hamilton was using the 7700 elaborate grade movement. Thus I cited that movement's accuracy. I am however not positive that's the movement or the grade used in the Hamilton.

    SEIKO BRIGHTZ Automatic SDGZ013 500pcs Limited Edition | seiyajapan.com

    I've seen the same accuracy specs on the Seiko from multiple sources, but not directly from Seiko (being JDM only making that difficult). 8R48 being the movement.

    As $2,000 is perhaps not going to turn up many COSC grade chronos I would not expect Seiko to be at that level, but it would not surprise me to see the top grades in this price range and thus the Seiko while very good looking, and offering very nice additional features in their movement, comes up to me a bit short by not having tighter accuracy specs. I got a lot of value in accuracy when comparing mechanical movements and I realize many are far more tolerant given the nature of mechanicals.
    Yep...As a practical matter, I can swear that barring be held at gunpoint to do so, I wouldn't buy the Seiko the OP pictured for anything close to $2K. I don't know Seiko's line up that well, but I'm confident I could find a less pricey Seiko that has comparable accuracy and that also looks nice. I may have to look to the JDM models to do so, but that's a minor detail.

    All the best.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    Cheers,
    Tony



    Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment.
    ― A.A. Milne







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