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  1. #91
    Member mleok's Avatar
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulprit View Post
    A movement’s “rating” is not an indicator of actual precision, it’s just a preset threshold within which the manufacturer will not find a movement to be defective. In other words, that number comes from the legal department, not the factory floor.
    That’s true to some extent, but it means Seiko isn’t willing to do anything if your 8L35 performs at -10 spd, because it isn’t defective in their view.

    But, it is naive to think that rating has nothing to do with what happens on the factory floor, since it gives some insight into the combination of failure rate they are willing to warranty and the variability in the accuracy achieved by their production process. A lax accuracy rating reflects some combination of variability in production and an unwillingness to correct defects that arise.


    Patek Philippe Calatrava 5119J; Vacheron Constantin Overseas; Jaeger-LeCoultre Grande Reverso Duo; Rolex Submariner 114060; Omega Seamaster 300; Montblanc Heritage Dual Time; Tudor Black Bay.

    Armida A12; Borealis Estoril; Bulova Accutron II Alpha, Moonwatch; Casio GMW-B5000D, GW-5000, GST-W310; Certina DS-2; Coach Fulton; Hamilton Khaki Field; Helson Skindiver; Orient 60th Anniversary; Seagull Tourbillon, 1963 Air Force; Seiko SNA089P, SUN025P1; Steinhart OVM; Swatch Body and Soul, Heracles, Sistem51, Uncle Charly; Victorinox Alliance, Infantry Vintage.

  2. #92
    Member Will_f's Avatar
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    I own a few watches including some Rolexes and a Tudor North Flag. If I only owned one watch, I’d probably keep the Submariner, but the NF would be number 2 or 3. Tudor’s in-house movement is absolutely outstanding and while you don’t get 904L stainless for the case like you would with Rolex, you can get a titanium Pelagos which is in some ways better.

    Overall, I’d say there’s no reason to spend Rolex money if you aren’t obsessed with the name on the dial and want Rolex quality at half the cost.


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  3. #93
    Member jmanlay's Avatar
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    Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by mleok View Post
    I recall similarly optimistic claims from owners about the accuracy of the 6R15s in the SARBs, but the three that I owned performed much closer to the outer limits of the published specifications, so I would much rather rely on the accuracy specifications that a manufacturer is willing to stand behind.
    It is not an optimistic claim, it is a fact, mine runs at +4 on a timegrapher but Seiko should at the price point have tighter tolerances for their movements without hoping one gets lucky. I would however not personally dismiss the brand because they don’t adjust their movements in 6 positions to cosc standards. I also don’t think that it speaks to their movement not being able to achieve such metrics as a whole. Maybe the investment is not worth it to them, maybe they don’t care, maybe I don’t care (I don’t if if it is +15/20) ...too many factors to say why it is how it is
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  5. #94
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by mleok View Post
    That’s true to some extent, but it means Seiko isn’t willing to do anything if your 8L35 performs at -10 spd, because it isn’t defective in their view.

    But, it is naive to think that rating has nothing to do with what happens on the factory floor, since it gives some insight into the combination of failure rate they are willing to warranty and the variability in the accuracy achieved by their production process. A lax accuracy rating reflects some combination of variability in production and an unwillingness to correct defects that arise.
    Given that mechanically the movements are similar, I thought that the differences largely reflect how much time and resources they are willing to put into regulating the movement, e.g. number of positions, temperatures, magnetism etc.

  6. #95
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by mleok View Post
    That’s true to some extent, but it means Seiko isn’t willing to do anything if your 8L35 performs at -10 spd, because it isn’t defective in their view.

    But, it is naive to think that rating has nothing to do with what happens on the factory floor, since it gives some insight into the combination of failure rate they are willing to warranty and the variability in the accuracy achieved by their production process. A lax accuracy rating reflects some combination of variability in production and an unwillingness to correct defects that arise.
    Oh, there’s no question that if Seiko was confident that every movement that came off the line would run between -5/+5 they’d proudly rate them as such; you’ll get no argument from me there. But given the sheer scale of Seiko’s movement manufacturing output, they’re not going to measure, grade, and, if necessary, regulate all those movements. Without that, yes, there will be variability. Seiko’s alternative to testing and regulating each movement is to ensure accuracy via consistency in production. The more consistently you make and assemble the parts, the more faithful the end product will be to the original (hopefully accurate) design. Of course, there are always acceptable tolerances in any production method, and tolerance-stacking can result in wild variations in the end product. Some movements will be +3 while others will be -10 or +15. Without testing Seiko doesn’t know where a particular movement will fall, so they give it a wide berth when rating it. So this method isn’t as effective at ensuring accuracy as testing and regulation, but it is still fairly effective and certainly infinitely more efficient, which is the Japanese way. This is reflected in the difference in cost between, say, an NH35 and a 2824.

    Seiko (as opposed to GS) is more concerned with manufacturing movements that are both affordable and durable; hyper-accuracy is a luxury and as long as it’s “accurate enough” in mechanical terms then it’ll suffice. One could certainly argue that a watch which houses an 8L—with a price to match—should be regulated before it leaves the factory, and I’m inclined to believe it should be, but in my experience I have never found the practical accuracy of a Seiko to come anywhere near the extremes of its rated accuracy. Nor, for that matter, have I found many significant differences in practical accuracy between my Seikos and my other watches (except for my ETA C07.111-powered Hamilton, which freakishly achieved almost quartz levels of accuracy).


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  7. #96
    Member mleok's Avatar
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    Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulprit View Post
    Oh, there’s no question that if Seiko was confident that every movement that came off the line would run between -5/+5 they’d proudly rate them as such; you’ll get no argument from me there. But given the sheer scale of Seiko’s movement manufacturing output, they’re not going to measure, grade, and, if necessary, regulate all those movements. Without that, yes, there will be variability. Seiko’s alternative to testing and regulating each movement is to ensure accuracy via consistency in production. The more consistently you make and assemble the parts, the more faithful the end product will be to the original (hopefully accurate) design. Of course, there are always acceptable tolerances in any production method, and tolerance-stacking can result in wild variations in the end product. Some movements will be +3 while others will be -10 or +15. Without testing Seiko doesn’t know where a particular movement will fall, so they give it a wide berth when rating it. So this method isn’t as effective at ensuring accuracy as testing and regulation, but it is still fairly effective and certainly infinitely more efficient, which is the Japanese way. This is reflected in the difference in cost between, say, an NH35 and a 2824.

    Seiko (as opposed to GS) is more concerned with manufacturing movements that are both affordable and durable; hyper-accuracy is a luxury and as long as it’s “accurate enough” in mechanical terms then it’ll suffice. One could certainly argue that a watch which houses an 8L—with a price to match—should be regulated before it leaves the factory, and I’m inclined to believe it should be, but in my experience I have never found the practical accuracy of a Seiko to come anywhere near the extremes of its rated accuracy. Nor, for that matter, have I found many significant differences in practical accuracy between my Seikos and my other watches (except for my ETA C07.111-powered Hamilton, which freakishly achieved almost quartz levels of accuracy).
    I have no issue with that strategy with a cheap movement like a 7S26 in a cheap watch like a Seiko 5, but it is unacceptable in an 8L35 that is used in a watch that retails for over $2000. It is certainly uncompetitive at the price points that Seiko is creeping up towards. This is probably why they prefer the Spring Drive, because they can rely on the quart regulated feedback system to correct the accuracy without human intervention, and charge a high premium to people who seem impressed that a quartz regulated movement has quartz level accuracy.
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    Patek Philippe Calatrava 5119J; Vacheron Constantin Overseas; Jaeger-LeCoultre Grande Reverso Duo; Rolex Submariner 114060; Omega Seamaster 300; Montblanc Heritage Dual Time; Tudor Black Bay.

    Armida A12; Borealis Estoril; Bulova Accutron II Alpha, Moonwatch; Casio GMW-B5000D, GW-5000, GST-W310; Certina DS-2; Coach Fulton; Hamilton Khaki Field; Helson Skindiver; Orient 60th Anniversary; Seagull Tourbillon, 1963 Air Force; Seiko SNA089P, SUN025P1; Steinhart OVM; Swatch Body and Soul, Heracles, Sistem51, Uncle Charly; Victorinox Alliance, Infantry Vintage.

  8. #97
    Member jmanlay's Avatar
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by mleok View Post
    I have no issue with that strategy with a cheap movement like a 7S26 in a cheap watch like a Seiko 5, but it is unacceptable in an 8L35 that is used in a watch that retails for over $2000. It is certainly uncompetitive at the price points that Seiko is creeping up towards. This is probably why they prefer the Spring Drive, because they can rely on the quart regulated feedback system to correct the accuracy without human intervention, and charge a high premium to people who seem impressed that a quartz regulated movement has quartz level accuracy.
    I am impressed ;)



  9. #98
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    Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by jmanlay View Post
    I am impressed ;)

    I am impressed with the conceptual design, and the feat of microelectronics that allows the power consumption to be lowered sufficiently that the eddy current damping and feedback controller can be powered by the inefficient power conversion system. I am however unimpressed that in making it work, that they were able to achieve quartz like accuracy.


    Patek Philippe Calatrava 5119J; Vacheron Constantin Overseas; Jaeger-LeCoultre Grande Reverso Duo; Rolex Submariner 114060; Omega Seamaster 300; Montblanc Heritage Dual Time; Tudor Black Bay.

    Armida A12; Borealis Estoril; Bulova Accutron II Alpha, Moonwatch; Casio GMW-B5000D, GW-5000, GST-W310; Certina DS-2; Coach Fulton; Hamilton Khaki Field; Helson Skindiver; Orient 60th Anniversary; Seagull Tourbillon, 1963 Air Force; Seiko SNA089P, SUN025P1; Steinhart OVM; Swatch Body and Soul, Heracles, Sistem51, Uncle Charly; Victorinox Alliance, Infantry Vintage.

  10. #99
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    Thread is being hijacked by conversation about the GS and similar Seiko movements. I might suggest that conversation be moved to its own thread, gentlemen.

  11. #100
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    Re: Opinion on Tudor

    Quote Originally Posted by mleok View Post
    I am impressed with the conceptual design, and the feat of microelectronics that allows the power consumption to be lowered sufficiently that the eddy current damping and feedback controller can be powered by the inefficient power conversion system. I am however unimpressed that in making it work, that they were able to achieve quartz like accuracy.
    Fair enough and frankly I am not too bothered by the accuracy whether it +1 a month or +10 a day as I don’t wear my watches long enough to notice anyway. I am however impressed w the finish the gliding second hand and the overall coolness of the piece.
    I am not a seikoholic but I find I wear them because they appeal to me more than some of my other watches . I am basically a looks first kind of guy then I go from there .
    Snaggletooth and 5959HH like this.

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