Hello everyone. I've been a member of this forum for a few months now, but strangely the more time passes the more I'm confused. As a newbie in this hobby I still feel overrun by my many doubts about the world that surrounds watches, even though I've been reading and searching this forum everyday.
My interest for mechanical watches only began recently when I received a beautiful Vintage VC as a gift. Since this watch is in perfect condition, even though it's a 1966 watch, I decided that I won't be wearing it often. For this reason I'm in need of an everyday watch.
At first I thought to go straight for an ultra high-end watch but I soon noticed that my knowledge in this field was so scarce that it would have been better to take my time and start with a lower range watch and keep the money that I've set aside for watches for the years to come when I gather more experience.
I haven't had a watch for the last 20 yrs, it was before I bought my first mobile phone, and it was probably a cheap Casio.
So, for my first watch, a daily watch, I've put my eyes on a Rolex, a Tissot and a Cristopher Ward. As I mentioned above I want to start with a lower end automatic watch and then when I feel confident enough I'll upgrade to a higher-end watch.
Here are my questions.
1. How big is the difference in quality between a Rolex and a Tissot or a CW to justify the difference in price?
2. I've read that Rolex watches are top quality and that they last many years. Does this mean that watches of lower brands like Tissot and CW don't last as long?
I really can't figure out why I should spend 10 times more for a Rolex than a Tissot or a CW, unless there are big differences in quality. I'm willing to pay more for best quality products, but only if the price is justified.
CW and Tissot are both well-respected, "affordable" brands. Rolex is, obviously, a well-respected, not-so-affordable brand. All three watches will last you a good, long time (with proper maintenance), but only one of them is the proverbial 600 pound gorilla in the room. You must decide for yourself whether the premium for the gorilla is "worth it."
But that's the point. I can't figure what this premium realy is. I'm trying to understand, but unless it's a premium on quality why should I pay more. Is it really just the name?
No, a more budget watch will not just fall apart if it's cared for. A lot of what you pay for in a higher end watch is cosmetic; finishing to a high degree is very expensive. You will have to decide if that's worth it to you.
I've owned many brands of watches - entry level to high end. When it comes to comparing the Tissot and CW to Rolex, it's not even in the same ballpark. It's true that much of what you're paying for is the brand, history etc.. but every aspect of the Rolex (quality wise) will far exceed the Tissot and CW.
The impression I'm getting is that you're after a good level of quality for the money. Given that this is the case, and also that this will be (kind of) your entry into the world of watches, I think you'd do just fine with a Tissot or Christopher Ward.
I've owned a Tissot Stylis T and a Rolex Submariner. From an aesthetic standpoint, there is a difference in the details. The tissot just felt cheap after wearing a sub, and I don't want to go back.
This info on the Chr Ward website is pretty interesting and deserves a read: Why Christopher Ward?
The C60 probably costs around $250 to manufacture and is marked up 3 times for a selling price of $750. Perhaps the Rolex costs $500 to manufacture but needs a mark up of 10x to cover the cost of sponsorships, celebrities endorsements, distribution channels, sales commissions, advertising, marketing and more. So that $500 Rolex needs to sell for $5,500 at the authorized dealer.
I am sure the Rolex is nicer than the Chr Ward watch. But it is $750 vs $5,500 and I doubt the Rolex is 7 times nicer than the C60. It will be more like 2x as nice. A reasonable price for the Rolex is probably around $1,500. Add $4,000 for the added costs mentioned above to get to the $5,500 selling price.
Some people wouldn't buy anything less than a Rolex. Others like me are turned off by a brand like that with very high margins where the end cost of the watch has a lot of hidden markups that have no value to me. I could easily buy a $500 Rolex but don't.
Rolex doesn't sell watches. They sell prestige, luxury, imagination, exclusivity, a brand and more. If you don't care for that, get a Chr Ward, Tissot, Oris, Alpina, Eterna and others.
This info on the Chr Ward website is pretty interesting and deserves a read: Why Christopher Ward?
The C60 probably costs around $250 to manufacture and is marked up 3 times for a selling price of $750. Perhaps the Rolex costs $500 to manufacture but needs a mark up of 10x to cover the cost of sponsorships, celebrities endorsements, distribution channels, sales commissions, advertising, marketing and more. So that $500 Rolex needs to sell for $5,500 at the authorized dealer.
I am sure the Rolex is nicer than the Chr Ward watch. But it is $750 vs $5,500 and I doubt the Rolex is 7 times nicer than the C60. And that is actually difficult to quantify. Some people wouldn't buy anything less than a Rolex. Others like me are turned off by a brand like that with very high margins where the end cost of the watch has a lot of hidden markups that have no value to me.
Rolex doesn't sell watches. They sell prestige, luxury, imagination, exclusivity, a brand and more. If you don't care for that, get a Chr Ward, Tissot, Oris, Alpina, Eterna and others.
To be fair, the owner of a cheap Swatch, Bulova, Seiko, or Casio could say that those brands sell "prestige, luxury, imagination, exclusivity, a brand and more." Very few of us truly need a watch in this day of cellphones (and don't argue you work in someplace that doesn't allow them or they don't work because I'm sure most of the people here who said they need a watch don't), so really, when you think about it, we all wear watches for the luxury (a watch is jewelry after all), imagination (the sensation and style associated with the watch), exclusivity and prestige (especially when most don't wear watches now).
"1. How big is the difference in quality between a Rolex and a Tissot or a CW to justify the difference in price?" That's the million dollar question or as someone said the 600lb gorilla in the room. Its hard to say without actually handling each example for your self. The Rolex is a very nice piece, I've looked at the Explorer, the Datejust and a Oyster Perpetual and they really are very nice. Are they 6k nice?? Hmmm only you can answer that question. My take on it is that you are paying for a high quality, reliable timepiece with a great history when you purchase a Rolex. Of course you are also purchasing membership in an exclusive club, as most people can't or won't spend that kind of money on a watch. When you walk into a room wearing a Rolex, people make assumptions. I suspect most people don't think, hey this guy or girl is really into watches, I believe many things come to mind: successful, driven, confident, A-hole, jerk, show off and a few more that I won't post here. What's the Rolex value proposition? In my mind its exclusivity and after all, they used to say: "A crown for every achievement"
If I have the money I would go for Rolex. I think in general they use better materials(including a different grade of steel), now they have a better warranty, they are probably more accurate out of the box and won't loose as much in value as the other ones with the pass of the years.
Also I would consider what kind of every day activities I do with the watch, if is going to take a lot of beaten I'll probably chose a cheaper one.
It is up to the individual to determine whether the value of a Veblen good is worth its price, which in turn is set by consumer demand. Do you think Rolex would charge the prices they do if consumers didn't think it was fair? So to answer your question, Rolex charge what they do because they can, because they have earned it. The question which still remains to be answered is whether you can justify the expense. The only way to make an educated desicion is to handle them and then makeup you own mind.
I have not handled Cw but I have handled my wife's Tissot with 3 day power reserve.
It was inaccurate and the operation of crown was extremely vague. I would not have paid $600 for it.
OP, since you're new, here's a more detailed general answer. The most expensive watches out there will be expensive because of work in the movement more than anything. Finishing all those working components to a high degree takes a lot of handwork and skill, and many of the more complicated movements can only be made by hand. This is Vacheron Constantin, A Lange & Söhne, etc level.
If you look at the movement for a Rolex, you'll find that it has none of that masterfully crafted finishing. Rolex operates in the luxury watch range, which are almost completely machine made. What you will find, however, is that Rolex and many others in the price range will have a lot of technical refinements that make them particularly reliable and accurate, and very tight tolerances in manufacturing all around.
At the budget end, you'll find watches that use generic, well-proven movements. The case and bracelet manufacturing will not be at as high of a level as the luxury watches, and the movements will be basic. They will still work well, but it's a lot less effort to make one of these and the cost reflects this.
OP, I think at this point you gotta ask yourself how deep or how much you're in this horology hobby. Judging by your consideration of selling the vintage VC, then I would say you're not into it much (for me, I wouldn't sell the VC). Which maybe a good thing for you. Now if that's the case, I think you can just go with Tissot and be done with it. Depending where you live, you can go to the mall and find some Tissots in jewelry stores and take a look/ try on yourself. Then go to online grey market get one.
IMO, if OP is asking this question then (s)he is not ready for a Rolex. When I first started in this hobby I was also in the impression you don't get much more besides brand name when you move up price range. That was why I purchased "cheaper" pieces. As I have moved up price brackets, I keep seeing "flaws" in the lower priced items, whether it is in my head or not. I think once the OP is ready for a piece in the Rolex price range, (s)he will be asking Rolex vs JLC vs GO vs etc etc.
Hello everyone. I've been a member of this forum for a few months now, but strangely the more time passes the more I'm confused. As a newbie in this hobby I still feel overrun by my many doubts about the world that surrounds watches, even though I've been reading and searching this forum everyday. My interest for mechanical watches only began recently when I received a beautiful Vintage VC as a gift. Since this watch is in perfect condition, even though it's a 1966 watch, I decided that I won't be wearing it often. For this reason I'm in need of an everyday watch.At first I thought to go straight for an ultra high-end watch but I soon noticed that my knowledge in this field was so scarce that it would have been better to take my time and start with a lower range watch and keep the money that I've set aside for watches for the years to come when I gather more experience. I haven't had a watch for the last 20 yrs, it was before I bought my first mobile phone, and it was probably a cheap Casio. So, for my first watch, a daily watch, I've put my eyes on a Rolex, a Tissot and a Cristopher Ward. As I mentioned above I want to start with a lower end automatic watch and then when I feel confident enough I'll upgrade to a higher-end watch. Here are my questions.1. How big is the difference in quality between a Rolex and a Tissot or a CW to justify the difference in price?2. I've read that Rolex watches are top quality and that they last many years. Does this mean that watches of lower brands like Tissot and CW don't last as long? I really can't figure out why I should spend 10 times more for a Rolex than a Tissot or a CW, unless there are big differences in quality. I'm willing to pay more for best quality products, but only if the price is justified. Can someone one please explain this to me? Here are the watches that I've put my eyes on:ROLEX OYSTER PERPETUALEXPLORERTISSOT PRC 200CW C60 TRIDENT PRO 600 38mm
As someone who's owned all three, I can personally say the Rolex is worth it. You'll end buy buying the CR or Tissot, and decide you want something else; and so will begin your never ending quest to find a truly satisfying watch. Just because the Tissot or CW will last (and they will), it doesn't mean you'll want to keep wearing them. You'd be hard pressed to find a more satisfying watch than a Rolex.
i dont own a rolex, maybe one day, but my t-racer tissot is miles away from the quality of christopher ward. my CW went through the warranty twice in 3 months. One was the crown and the second time is the accuracy.
Rolexes are nice but they ain't THAT nice. Rolexes are as expensive as they are due to marketing and artificial cost controls (You don't actually believe jewelry quality diamonds are really that rare and expensive do you? The same cost control shenanigans go on at Rolex). For example: Is a Rolex Sub really 2x the watch as a Tudor black bay? No way. That's proof right there of how much fat is included in the cost of a Rolex. Heck, I'd say a Rolex isn't even the same quality as a Grand Seiko (certainly not case, dial, and hand finishing) and they're 1/2 the cost of a Rolex.
People are also mistaking quality for "expensive". A Toyota is more reliable...and therefore better quality by the definition of the word...than a BMW or Benz, but the BMW and Benz go a bit faster and use fancier materials. That's not better quality, that's faster, prettier, and crappier. Not that this applies to Rolex. Their watches are about as reliable as they come, but then again same can be said for the ETA in the Tissot and CW.
But I digress. If you want to sell the VC you obviously aren't too into watches. They don't get much more drool worthy for a watch guy than a VC. I'd keep the VC, use it for special occasions, and get the Tissot or CW. They won't be quite as nice as the Rolex but the Rolex just isn't 10x better. If you do get into watches and have the disposable income to blow on a 4-5 figure watch and decide that an Explorer has your name on it then you buy it and just keep the Tissot or CW and use it as your beater. You're no worse off.
Rolexes are nice but they ain't THAT nice. Rolexes are as expensive as they are due to marketing and artificial cost controls (You don't actually believe jewelry quality diamonds are really that rare and expensive do you? The same cost control shenanigans go on at Rolex). For example: Is a Rolex Sub really 2x the watch as a Tudor black bay? No way. That's proof right there of how much fat is included in the cost of a Rolex. Heck, I'd say a Rolex isn't even the same quality as a Grand Seiko (certainly not case, dial, and hand finishing) and they're 1/2 the cost of a Rolex.
People are also mistaking quality for "expensive". A Toyota is more reliable...and therefore better quality by the definition of the word...than a BMW or Benz, but the BMW and Benz go a bit faster and use fancier materials. That's not better quality, that's faster, prettier, and crappier. Not that this applies to Rolex. Their watches are about as reliable as they come, but then again same can be said for the ETA in the Tissot and CW.
But I digress. If you want to sell the VC you obviously aren't too into watches. They don't get much more drool worthy for a watch guy than a VC. I'd keep the VC, use it for special occasions, and get the Tissot or CW. They won't be quite as nice as the Rolex but the Rolex just isn't 10x better. If you do get into watches and have the disposable income to blow on a 4-5 figure watch and decide that an Explorer has your name on it then you buy it and just keep the Tissot or CW and use it as your beater. You're no worse off.
Rolex watches are expensive because the company has insane overhead. Did you not read a single word from that Rolex article? They have hundred of highly skilled and trained professionals working for them. Do you think that's cheap labor? How about runing R&D and metallurgy labs??? How about production facilities, that employ highly specialized workers? How about the purchasing and maintenance of said machines? What about the stockpiling of precious metals?
Artificial supply and marking to drive the cost up? That's laughable. Considering the amount of money Rolex spends annually on operations alone, the buy in price of almost any model seems reasonable.
I keep hearing that Rolex is overpriced and simply a construct of marketing and ignorant and status conscious buyers. Yet, for some reason, even massive watch conglomerates like Swatch and Seiko and their economies of scale seem incapable of delivering at a comparable or lower price point the simple things that Rolex does so well, such as the exceptional manufacturing precision and fit, and a robust implementation of an instantaneous date change complication that can be quickset at any time without risk of damage.
I have absolutely no problem with people who say that they'll never own a Rolex, it's when they presume to judge my intellect and motivations based on the watches that I wear that I take issue.
Another Rolex V 'cheaper brand' V 'another cheaper brand' thread.
It really does typify the new members of this forum, that the number of these threads just keep popping up. Yes, it could be bored trolls who take it upon themselves to ignite some debate on WUS. However, I believe that some of these threads are actually honest people who have no idea about brands within the watch culture.
If you ever have to have an internal debate about brands, and who is better than who. Then I think you need to reconsider your hobbies/interests.
I will not shed any light on this thread, other than to say that if you fail to know why one is and always will be better than the other two, then please go ahead and buy that 'cheaper' comparable (in your mind) watch.
Ultimately, buy what you can afford, and aspire to climb that horological ladder. However, on your way up, don't try to compare the watches you own, with the watches you are aspiring to.
Go to a boutique, hold some watches from the the big players, try them on, ask questions. Learn. Listen. Read. Retain knowledge.
Until then, everything else is a waste of time.
Oh, I don't even like Rolex, however, it is what it is.
No my friend I'm not a bored troll. I'm only a newbie with many questions and doubts and with no experience with watches. Before I splash out lots of cash for a watch I like to get all the info I can from more experienced falks. The decision I'll make will be when I try the watches on my wrist. But before I walk in a boutique I want to get informed as much as I can
I read the article. Do you not think Tudor has similar overhead? Grand Seiko? Their products are as good and cost 1/2 what Rolex charges. Please explain how Rolex is unique here and that they have double the manufacturing overhead.
Sorry to be a buzzkill but if you did a quick search, it would reveal 1000s of threads on the value proposition of Rolex. Do we really need to do this again?
I'm also going to assume that things like Breguet over-coil, Parachrom, full balance bridge, free-sprung and end-shake adjustment don't mean much to you.
Please, just terms like keyless, hacking, rotor, etc will be way above his head.
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