Screwed balances with regulators?
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: Screwed balances with regulators?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17
  1. #1
    Member Camguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Arlington VA
    Posts
    5,562

    Screwed balances with regulators?

    I've seen a few photos recently of escapements with traditional, "screwed" or weighted balance wheels, but also a regulating device, swan-neck or otherwise (e.g. Rolex, JLC, Patek, even an old Benrus from the '50s)). Why both? If the purpose of the weights is to regulate the rate, as is the regulating lever, isn't one or the other redundant?
    Are the weights (either traditional or adjustable-mass) to adjust for isochronism and the lever for rate? Or does it just look cool?

  2. #2
    Vintage & NAWCC Forum moderator Ben_hutcherson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    2,406

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    In the past(primarily pre-1950) the screws primarily served to adjust for temperature and were not generally used to adjust rate although they could be.
    Member National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors
    Member, NAWCC Chapter 149. Vice President and Secretary NAWCC Chapter 140. Member, NAWCC Convention Committee.
    Serious collector of American pocket watches-Waltham(and the predecessor companies) is my specialty.

  3. #3
    Member Camguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Arlington VA
    Posts
    5,562

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    Thanks for the reply. I'm asking about modern movements, however. I wish I could find an excellent article I'd on fine regulation in which I saw the photos.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    WatchUSeek.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4
    Member sheon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    876

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    There was a nice thread about this recently:

    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/fall...ml#post5478978

    hope that helps.
    Last edited by sheon; January 6th, 2013 at 13:03.
    'I reach for my watch from the bedside table and consider the dial - its rectitude, its innocence - then I understand the position of the hands and that, yes, rush-hour traffic will already have begun.' - Deborah Eisenberg, The Flaw in the Design

  6. #5
    Member Camguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Arlington VA
    Posts
    5,562

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    Yes, thanks, I think this quote helps shed some light: "...if you were buying a high-end watch with a modern, in house movement, it had better be an adjustable inertia balance. Whether or not that movement also had a regulator is another matter entirely. You could settle for the smooth balance if you couldn't afford one of these higher end models."

    And, thanks again, this is the article I was looking for:
    http://www.watchtime.at/archive/wt_2006_06/WT_2006_06_092.pdf

    Looking at the photo of the Lange 041.2, in spit of the caption, it looks to me as if there's swan-neck indexing as well as an adjustable-mass wheel.

    Edit: aaahhhh..."When you make a balance spring, the rate varies ever so much and given the sensitivity of the balance spring this make a big difference in natural rate. With a screw-balance, the moment of inertia of the balance can be adjusted to match the spring by removing material from the screws, with a smooth balance, the spring must be matched to the balance, by repositioning the terminal stud. The former is much easier to do in low volume production. So, high end watches kept this system for may years, it has changed recently because with better production equipment, it is easier match the frequencies of a smooth balance and spring and install the terminal stud."
    Last edited by Camguy; January 6th, 2013 at 07:13.

  7. #6
    Member CitizenM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Waco & Norman
    Posts
    10,228

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    It doesn't really matter in terms of the watch the consumer receives (it might matter on the drawing board). There are crazy accurate movements made with both designs currently. There are a number of high end, in house movements that feature smooth balances very successfully, namely Zenith and Grand Seiko, but not exclusively them. For some time it seemed as if smooth balances would simply be relegated to "cheap" mechanicals, but this is clearly no longer the case as Nomos, Cartier, Breitling and others have adopted new in house movements using smooth balances, joining the long-time fans of the smooth balance, again, Zenith and GS.

  8. #7
    Member georges zaslavsky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Croissy sur Seine, France
    Posts
    12,400

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenM View Post
    It doesn't really matter in terms of the watch the consumer receives (it might matter on the drawing board). There are crazy accurate movements made with both designs currently. There are a number of high end, in house movements that feature smooth balances very successfully, namely Zenith and Grand Seiko, but not exclusively them. For some time it seemed as if smooth balances would simply be relegated to "cheap" mechanicals, but this is clearly no longer the case as Nomos, Cartier, Breitling and others have adopted new in house movements using smooth balances, joining the long-time fans of the smooth balance, again, Zenith and GS.
    Exception made of Rolex (Microstella), Patek (Gyromax) and Omega (Coaxial) besides them none else uses balance wheels with screws that allow regulating and tuning accuracy. There are other way of making a watch accurate. The triovis micrometric fine adjustment regulator is used by IWC, Zenith, Breguet, Blancpain, Vacheron Constantin, Audemars Piguet, Paul Picot, Nomos, Breitling (in their inhouse movements), Cartier, Perrelet (in their house movement) and others use it. Here is the definition of how a triovis
    Tweaking the Mark XII: Part 2.2 - Part 1 - TimeZone works
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/regu...or-446780.html
    Omega the sign of Excellence since 1848. Jaeger Le Coultre Horlogerie de Luxe depuis 1833
    22 times Olympic games timekeeper, Nasa watch supplier and holder of several world records of precision, Omega has the world's trust
    Omega and Rolex for ever
    Eterna Nothing but Watchmaking since 1856
    Zenith Swiss Watchmaking and Chronometry champion since 1865

  9. #8
    Member mleok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    La Jolla, CA
    Posts
    18,439

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    Quote Originally Posted by georges zaslavsky View Post
    Exception made of Rolex (Microstella), Patek (Gyromax) and Omega (Coaxial) besides them none else uses balance wheels with screws that allow regulating and tuning accuracy. There are other way of making a watch accurate. The triovis micrometric fine adjustment regulator is used by IWC, Zenith, Breguet, Blancpain, Vacheron Constantin, Audemars Piguet, Paul Picot, Nomos, Breitling (in their inhouse movements), Cartier, Perrelet (in their house movement) and others use it. Here is the definition of how a triovis
    Tweaking the Mark XII: Part 2.2 - Part 1 - TimeZone works
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/regu...or-446780.html
    How do you feel about the modifications that Tudor makes to Top grade ETA 2824-2, in particular, switching to a Triovis regulator, and going from Incabloc to KIF? I ask because on another thread, you were rather dismissive of Tudor's use of ETA movements, and I was wondering if you felt that these modifications were worthwhile, and it somehow compensates for using an ETA ebauche. Put another way, would you prefer that over an in-house Tudor movement, but with the same specifications, in terms of mainspring material (Nivaflex NM), balance wheel material (glycodur), hairspring material (anachron), and shock system (incabloc) as a Top or Chronometer grade ETA 2824-2?


    Patek Philippe Calatrava 5119J; Vacheron Constantin Overseas; Jaeger-LeCoultre Grande Reverso Duo; Rolex Submariner 114060; Omega Seamaster 300; Montblanc Heritage Dual Time; Tudor Black Bay, Black Bay GMT.

    Armida A12; Borealis Estoril; Bulova Accutron II Alpha, Moonwatch; Casio GMW-B5000D, GW-5000, GST-W310; Coach Fulton; Hamilton Khaki Field; Helson Skindiver; Orient 60th Anniversary; Seagull Tourbillon, 1963 Air Force; Seiko SNA089P, SUN025P1; Steinhart OVM; Swatch Body and Soul, Heracles, Sistem51, Uncle Charly; Victorinox Alliance, Infantry Vintage.

  10. #9
    Member georges zaslavsky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Croissy sur Seine, France
    Posts
    12,400

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    Quote Originally Posted by mleok View Post
    How do you feel about the modifications that Tudor makes to Top grade ETA 2824-2, in particular, switching to a Triovis regulator, and going from Incabloc to KIF? I ask because on another thread, you were rather dismissive of Tudor's use of ETA movements, and I was wondering if you felt that these modifications were worthwhile, and it somehow compensates for using an ETA ebauche. Put another way, would you prefer that over an in-house Tudor movement, but with the same specifications, in terms of mainspring material (Nivaflex NM), balance wheel material (glycodur), hairspring material (anachron), and shock system (incabloc) as a Top or Chronometer grade ETA 2824-2?
    Even if a Tudor was using a 2824 modified with kif, anachron and triovis regulation, I would never buy one but I would rather stick to something inhouse because when you pay over 4k€ in a luxury brand, to have a 2824 is unacceptable. I would rather spend my bucks on a second hand Rolex than on a Tudor.
    Omega the sign of Excellence since 1848. Jaeger Le Coultre Horlogerie de Luxe depuis 1833
    22 times Olympic games timekeeper, Nasa watch supplier and holder of several world records of precision, Omega has the world's trust
    Omega and Rolex for ever
    Eterna Nothing but Watchmaking since 1856
    Zenith Swiss Watchmaking and Chronometry champion since 1865

  11. #10
    Member mleok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    La Jolla, CA
    Posts
    18,439

    Re: Screwed balances with regulators?

    Quote Originally Posted by georges zaslavsky View Post
    Even if a Tudor was using a 2824 modified with kif, anachron and triovis regulation, I would never buy one but I would rather stick to something inhouse because when you pay over 4k€ in a luxury brand, to have a 2824 is unacceptable. I would rather spend my bucks on a second hand Rolex than on a Tudor.
    So, in-house status is more important than the technology in the movement to you?

    In any case, a Tudor Black Bay is 2500 Euros on a leather strap, and 2700 Euros on a bracelet, and that's the Italian MSRP (inclusive of 21% VAT). At what price point does it become unacceptable to have an ETA 2824?

    Assuming one considers the pretax price, and gets a 10% discount, that's about $2600. There aren't too many Swiss or German watches one can purchase new for that price with an in-house movement, except maybe Frederique Constant with the FC-710, and Nomos (if you consider their Alpha to be in-house, as opposed to a modified Peseux 7001).

    For a watch at that price point, the value of an in-house movement is questionable (to me), since I don't really wish to be restricted to only a factory service for a watch at that price point.
    Last edited by mleok; January 6th, 2013 at 10:33.


    Patek Philippe Calatrava 5119J; Vacheron Constantin Overseas; Jaeger-LeCoultre Grande Reverso Duo; Rolex Submariner 114060; Omega Seamaster 300; Montblanc Heritage Dual Time; Tudor Black Bay, Black Bay GMT.

    Armida A12; Borealis Estoril; Bulova Accutron II Alpha, Moonwatch; Casio GMW-B5000D, GW-5000, GST-W310; Coach Fulton; Hamilton Khaki Field; Helson Skindiver; Orient 60th Anniversary; Seagull Tourbillon, 1963 Air Force; Seiko SNA089P, SUN025P1; Steinhart OVM; Swatch Body and Soul, Heracles, Sistem51, Uncle Charly; Victorinox Alliance, Infantry Vintage.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •