some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

Thread: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

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  1. #1
    Member ecthelion's Avatar
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    some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    It's not every day that I have something original with which to start a new thread, so here goes.

    I was thinking (dangerous, I know) and I realized that there are a number of (relatively) newer technologies/innovations watch manufacturers could implement to combat/counter counterfeiting and theft. I'll just list here a few of my ideas, and what I see to be their pros and cons. Please be warned that this may be a lengthy list.

    Idea Pros Cons
    barcode engraving easily done; technology to do so exists; space on (most) watch cases exists easily duplicated
    one-way crystal (reflective side on the inside so you can see the watch from the outside) interior side can be used in "reflector test": open caseback, remove movement, and see if the interior side of crystal reflects light (to do this without removing the caseback would require shining the light through at an angle and at least a semi-reflective dial; costly to duplicate (I think); ideal for watches with skeleton movements and see-through casebacks expensive, especially if using sapphire glass; may require opening watch case (usually)
    diffracting crystal shine a light/laser through it to see identifier information encoded in crystal (invisible to naked eye), kind of like how the bug in Jason Bourne's hip contained bank information not visible unless the LED was turned on; does not require any opening, only a laser/diode; difficult and costly to duplicate expensive; difficult to do without obscuring glass (the information on CDs is in fact encoded on the reflective surface, not the clear plastic)
    RFID tag easy to install and conceal in a watch, i.e. can be an easily-missed (by counterfeiters) detail sets off supermarket/department store alarms; once counterfeiters catch on, easy to put into a fake; no way to make RFID tags contain individual item identifiers (as far as I know)
    ID chip/smart card-style tag easy to install and conceal in a watch (e.g. as part of the circuitry of quartz watches, or perhaps concealed somewhere in/on the crystal or the case) expensive; may require major modifications to watch design


    In terms of pros/cons, this is what was going through my mind:
    1. the modifications need to consider ease of duplication (which will in turn affect the ease of manufacture or lack thereof) and cost of duplication.
    2. the modifications should consider whether or not significant modifications to current watch configurations are needed (e.g. unlike Rolex' rehaut, which consists largely of special engravings, most of the modifications I've suggested in the list require modifications that go beyond simple engraving).
    3. the modifications should consider the ease of access, i.e. how easy/difficult it is to use the modification to verify authenticity (if it requires opening the case, then it's no good).

    The first idea that prompted this was the diffraction crystal idea, then the smart card-esque chip and RFID ideas. To expand on the diffracting crystal idea, this is what came to mind:

    The information on CDs, which is not visible to the naked eye, and cannot be reproduced/modified unless the CD is a CD-RW, is read by scanning it through a laser while it spins many times a second. In first film of the Jason Bourne series (I read the books too, but I liked the films more), one of the guys who pulls Jason Bourne out of the water finds an LED device in Jason Bourne's hip that, when turned on, projects bank account information but when looked at head-on just looks like an activated LED. I am not sure what about these two led me to diffracting lenses (because neither is an example of diffraction per se) but nonetheless that was my train of thought.

    What if individual watch identifier information, and in the case of really special watches, individual owner information, could be encoded in a watch's crystal such that it wouldn't obstruct the view of the dial but when a light/LED/black light/laser was shined through it, it would display information (or reflect an image) that could verify a watch's authenticity? What about a hologram-embedded crystal (too easy to copy, maybe)?

    So, what ideas do you all have? What am I missing about the ideas I've posted so far? Also, in my mind there's no reason why several of these couldn't be implemented simultaneously; in fact, some of them may be stronger marks of authenticity when used in combination.
    Last edited by ecthelion; January 7th, 2013 at 22:58. Reason: expanded on diffraction crystal idea
    "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events; great minds discuss ideas."

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  2. #2
    Member Thrax's Avatar
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    I like where you're going with this thread. One point to note, however, is that a store's anti-theft tags and RFS gates don't use RFID in the way inventory or electronic entry systems use rFID. They use simple 8MHz tags with no coded information.

    tl;dr: if the tag wasn't 8MHz, you wouldn't trip the door with it.

  3. #3
    Member ecthelion's Avatar
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    Nice - so manufacturers could, in theory use manufacturer-specific RFID tags that could in a general sense verify a watch's manufacture yet not set off the gates at most retail locations. Aside from the potential for duplication, that seems to me to be among the easier anti-counterfeiting measures.
    "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events; great minds discuss ideas."

    As of 2019.05.17:

    Victorinox Swiss Army Dive Master 500 #241421 Chronograph (reserve, exercise, outdoors stuff)
    Omega ref. 166.0117, 1020 mvt., stainless steel (reserve)
    Orient Ray II (daily beater)
    Stuhrling Original Montague mechanical (modified; daily beater)

    ...and a number of no-name watches for parts and tinkering

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  5. #4
    Member ecthelion's Avatar
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    I feel like this thread should actually be in another forum, like the general forum.
    "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events; great minds discuss ideas."

    As of 2019.05.17:

    Victorinox Swiss Army Dive Master 500 #241421 Chronograph (reserve, exercise, outdoors stuff)
    Omega ref. 166.0117, 1020 mvt., stainless steel (reserve)
    Orient Ray II (daily beater)
    Stuhrling Original Montague mechanical (modified; daily beater)

    ...and a number of no-name watches for parts and tinkering

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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecthelion View Post
    I feel like this thread should actually be in another forum, like the general forum.
    Good idea...it should get more exposure there and possibly more good ideas to add to yours

  7. #6
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    I think serial number database will work also as an anti-counterfeiting tool. Lets say a watch maker built a rep-heavy expensive watch. Before the watch's ship out to the dealers, the manufacturer would enter the watch's serial number into not so accessible computer database. And the serial number itself should be unique and random.
    Then the end user, if he feels that his watch is not authentic,would go to the dealer who will then cross check watch's serial number with computer's. If the number is in the database-the watch is authentic. If not, there's a problem.
    Last edited by tissomega; January 11th, 2013 at 02:35.

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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by tissomega View Post
    I think serial number database will work also as an anti-counterfeiting tool. Lets say a watch maker built a rep-heavy expensive watch. Before the watch's ship out to the dealers, the manufacturer would enter the watch's serial number into not so accessible computer database. And the serial number itself should be unique and random.
    Then the end user, if he feels that his watch is not authentic,would go to the dealer who will then cross check watch's serial number with computer's. If the number is in the database-the watch is authentic. If not, there's a problem.
    Sadly; that won't work since most fake watches have a copied serial number from a real watch.

  9. #8
    Member xingfenzhen's Avatar
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pawl_Buster View Post
    Sadly; that won't work since most fake watches have a copied serial number from a real watch.
    Actually that's not a problem, however, watch casing acting as a Faraday cage will be a problem though.
    (Actually there is a on going project in China that will tag Cigarette against counterfeiter using this technique)
    http://people.csail.mit.edu/devadas/...fid_puf_08.pdf
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  10. #9
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by xingfenzhen View Post
    Actually that's not a problem, however, watch casing acting as a Faraday cage will be a problem though.
    (Actually there is a on going project in China that will tag Cigarette against counterfeiter using this technique)
    http://people.csail.mit.edu/devadas/...fid_puf_08.pdf
    I was only speaking about serial numbers as stamped on the watch.
    The other methods do hold promise though.

    With today's technology; it wouldn't be too difficult to embed one of these devices in the dial or even the crystal, thereby being accessible to a scanner.

  11. #10
    Member ecthelion's Avatar
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    Re: some new ideas...what ideas do you have?

    The serial number database thing has already been implemented before (and, for the reasons that pawl_buster pointed out, it can be defeated too easily by counterfeiters taking/copying a serial number from a legitimate watch). And this is a problem only because major watch makers don't seem to be going too much further to improve their anti-counterfeiting measures.

    As for the whole Faraday cage thing, I'm not sure I see the point - a Faraday cage is an all-metal case/"cage" meant to protect objects within the cage from electric shocks/interference/current surges by essentially conducting any incoming electricity into ground (not necessarily the ground, but my fellow engineers and scientists understand what I mean) and away from whatever's inside the cage. For instance, many cars act as Faraday cages when hit by lightning; occupants of most cars hit by lightning are generally left unscathed. How this has anything to do with combating counterfeiting I am not sure, unless another idea for a way to check watch legitimacy involves shocking the watch.
    "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events; great minds discuss ideas."

    As of 2019.05.17:

    Victorinox Swiss Army Dive Master 500 #241421 Chronograph (reserve, exercise, outdoors stuff)
    Omega ref. 166.0117, 1020 mvt., stainless steel (reserve)
    Orient Ray II (daily beater)
    Stuhrling Original Montague mechanical (modified; daily beater)

    ...and a number of no-name watches for parts and tinkering

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