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  1. #101
    Member little big feather's Avatar
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    My issue with made in China,is a strong lack of ethics on their part. Example boutique watch makers ordered bronze cases.
    The Chinese maker gave them brass,can't sue them, they do what they want. Central American cough syrup maker
    ordered Glycerin,label read glycerin...product was glycol (anti-freeze), dozens died more were blinded. Workers admitted they knew the difference,
    But it wasn't being used by anyone they knew. Part calls for high grade steel...make it out of old garbage can lids, nothing they intend to buy.
    Any watches posted may be seen as gifts,borrowed or found property and not as personal property of Little Big Feather.

  2. #102
    Member Legion681's Avatar
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnderW View Post
    Mike, I think you are correct that the issues is w perceived deception. If a watch says Swiss on it, it should really be Swiss. Few other posters of Swiss background talked about pride - an that's valid as long as pride is based on reality.

    Wuyeah has made some really thoughtful comments on quality of many Chinese goods. If the client (like Invicta) is demanding lowest-priced product possible, the quality will not be there. But obviously as Apple has shown - China can also produce very good quality goods w high QC. They'll produce to spec - very cheap and junk, or somewhat cheap and ok, or mid-price and pretty good, or high price and great - just like anywhere else.

    I recall seeing a WRUW post in the last day or two where a member (monsierxu) posted a picture of Celadon Imperial. I was blow away by the beauty of that watch. The case back on it says "Made in Chine With Pride". Now that was a cool watch. Reading up on it - there is little doubt in my mind that it has quality on par or better than quite a few Swiss brands. Unfortunately today, brands like this have little visibility and little presence. But I appreciate CHinese made quality goods and hope they increase in frequency.

    Long way to get back to original point - if Swiss want to capitalize on emotion or cachet, they have to deliver w Swissiness (is that a word?) of the product. As long as 60% standard is open to loopholes, the label doe snot carry a lot of meaning.
    Our national pride in our watch industry IS based on reality. Ask yourself what nation has contributed the most to watches in history and the answer can only be one: Switzerland. Is anyone really doubting this?
    Switzerland has been the driving force behind this wonderful hobby of ours. And you can bet that it will most likely stay like this for the time being.

    By the way many complain here, it feels like some think that the average Swiss watch company is a PO Box somewhere in the countryside and that's all. By the word of the Swiss law, that is not the case. Never mind those like Rolex, VC, PP, AP, etc etc that voluntarily exceed by far the requirements of the law.

    I think you are a good poster, Ender. But denying our national heritage and pride came off as a bit insulting. If watch makers in our country had/have no pride, I guarantee you that the watch world would be close to a lifeless desert. Imagine a watch world without the Swiss watch industry.
    Jaeger Lecoultre Master Grande Ultra Thin Date, Bucherer Edition
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    Sea Dweller 4000, ref 116600 / Datejust, ref 116234 / Milgauss, ref 116400
    Longines Conquest Heritage 1954-2014 (#13 of 60)
    Grand Seiko SBGA011 / SBGV005
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  3. #103
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by little big feather View Post
    My issue with made in China,is a strong lack of ethics on their part. Example boutique watch makers ordered bronze cases.
    The Chinese maker gave them brass,can't sue them, they do what they want. Central American cough syrup maker
    ordered Glycerin,label read glycerin...product was glycol (anti-freeze), dozens died more were blinded. Workers admitted they knew the difference,
    But it wasn't being used by anyone they knew. Part calls for high grade steel...make it out of old garbage can lids, nothing they intend to buy.
    Right. Cheap watches? Fine. Goes into my body in any way, shape, or form? Nope.
    Chronopolis likes this.
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  5. #104
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by Okapi001 View Post
    I don't consider that hand-crafted. Bits and pieces of automated production parts assembled by hand is just patronizing buyers.
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  6. #105
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    While Wuyeah made some very good points that elicited my sympathies, one cannot ignore this aspect either.


    Quote Originally Posted by little big feather View Post
    My issue with made in China,is a strong lack of ethics on their part. Example boutique watch makers ordered bronze cases.
    The Chinese maker gave them brass,can't sue them, they do what they want. Central American cough syrup maker
    ordered Glycerin,label read glycerin...product was glycol (anti-freeze), dozens died more were blinded. Workers admitted they knew the difference,
    But it wasn't being used by anyone they knew. Part calls for high grade steel...make it out of old garbage can lids, nothing they intend to buy.
    "Be thine own palace, or the world's thy jail." _ John Donne

  7. #106
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    You do know Rolex makes 700000 watches a year. That more than the ford pickup the number one selling vehicle or Toyota corolla the number one selling car in the world.

    I'm not sure how far you want to take that hand built argument. Are fords and toyota's hand built because machines don't do everything?

  8. #107
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion681 View Post
    Our national pride in our watch industry IS based on reality. Ask yourself what nation has contributed the most to watches in history and the answer can only be one: Switzerland. Is anyone really doubting this?
    Switzerland has been the driving force behind this wonderful hobby of ours. And you can bet that it will most likely stay like this for the time being.

    By the way many complain here, it feels like some think that the average Swiss watch company is a PO Box somewhere in the countryside and that's all. By the word of the Swiss law, that is not the case. Never mind those like Rolex, VC, PP, AP, etc etc that voluntarily exceed by far the requirements of the law.

    I think you are a good poster, Ender. But denying our national heritage and pride came off as a bit insulting. If watch makers in our country had/have no pride, I guarantee you that the watch world would be close to a lifeless desert. Imagine a watch world without the Swiss watch industry.
    Legion - apologies if this was perceived as an insult. It was not intended to be such. In one of earlier posts on this thread I indicated that most Swiss brands are truly Swiss and nobody thinks twice about them (Rolex, VC, PP, AP etc you quoted - are common knowledge Swiss brands w proud heritage). My issue was always w brands that put "Swiss Made" on the dial, but as you said - have a PO box in countryside. Take a look at ROtary, Stuhrling and Invicta watches coming out w "Swiss Made" labels.

    Here is a simple example of the issue I have:
    Claro-Semag CL-888 is used in a bunch of watches w "Swiss Made" label, but it's essentially Seagull ST16 with minimum modification. It's a fine movement for affordables, but when used w "Swiss Made" label - it's deception. Nothing to be proud of there.

    Swiss contributions to the world are undisputed here - watches, chocolates, banking institutions, skiing etc. Lots to be proud of. But that doesn't mean that everything is worthy of pride.

    I came originally from former Soviet Union. National pride was and still is a big thing there. Russia gave us a lot of cool stuff - first man in space, fine art\music\literature, and way more. That does not mean I'll be proud of everything they do. Nationalistic tendencies in todays Russia are quite misplaced.
    It's too easy for companies to capitalize on emotions and pride in order to deceive (again not everyone does it, but many do).

    Another example; Shinola Watch co is capitalizing like crazy on "Made in USA\Detroit", yet they use Swiss quartz movements. Now they actually make very fine quartz watches w interesting designs and dials, but "American pride" associated w Shinola is displaced. Except for maybe RGM, US watchmaking is history (Hamilton, Elgin and others are unfortunately gone as great US watch companies)/

    Anyway, a very long way to say that Swiss supremacy, heritage and contributions to horology are not in dispute. Deceptive marketing practices by some brands are questionable though.
    Legion681 and UKMike like this.

  9. #108
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnderW View Post
    Legion - apologies if this was perceived as an insult. It was not intended to be such. In one of earlier posts on this thread I indicated that most Swiss brands are truly Swiss and nobody thinks twice about them (Rolex, VC, PP, AP etc you quoted - are common knowledge Swiss brands w proud heritage). My issue was always w brands that put "Swiss Made" on the dial, but as you said - have a PO box in countryside. Take a look at ROtary, Stuhrling and Invicta watches coming out w "Swiss Made" labels.

    Here is a simple example of the issue I have:
    Claro-Semag CL-888 is used in a bunch of watches w "Swiss Made" label, but it's essentially Seagull ST16 with minimum modification. It's a fine movement for affordables, but when used w "Swiss Made" label - it's deception. Nothing to be proud of there.

    Swiss contributions to the world are undisputed here - watches, chocolates, banking institutions, skiing etc. Lots to be proud of. But that doesn't mean that everything is worthy of pride.

    I came originally from former Soviet Union. National pride was and still is a big thing there. Russia gave us a lot of cool stuff - first man in space, fine art\music\literature, and way more. That does not mean I'll be proud of everything they do. Nationalistic tendencies in todays Russia are quite misplaced.
    It's too easy for companies to capitalize on emotions and pride in order to deceive (again not everyone does it, but many do).

    Another example; Shinola Watch co is capitalizing like crazy on "Made in USA\Detroit", yet they use Swiss quartz movements. Now they actually make very fine quartz watches w interesting designs and dials, but "American pride" associated w Shinola is displaced. Except for maybe RGM, US watchmaking is history (Hamilton, Elgin and others are unfortunately gone as great US watch companies)/

    Anyway, a very long way to say that Swiss supremacy, heritage and contributions to horology are not in dispute. Deceptive marketing practices by some brands are questionable though.
    Ender, thanks for your reply. I was right in thinking that you are a good poster.

    I agree with the examples of brands like Rotary, Stuhrling, etc etc... Those folks are the ones that use the rules to bend them, not to respect them. I do not defend those.

    All I can say is that I hope the future of our national industry will belong to folks like AP, VC, PP, Rolex, etc etc that truly honor this hobby of ours.
    mleok and EnderW like this.
    Jaeger Lecoultre Master Grande Ultra Thin Date, Bucherer Edition
    Rolex
    Sea Dweller 4000, ref 116600 / Datejust, ref 116234 / Milgauss, ref 116400
    Longines Conquest Heritage 1954-2014 (#13 of 60)
    Grand Seiko SBGA011 / SBGV005
    Seiko SBBN015
    Sinn 140 A (#087 of 500)
    + others...

  10. #109
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion681 View Post
    Our national pride in our watch industry IS based on reality. Ask yourself what nation has contributed the most to watches in history and the answer can only be one: Switzerland. Is anyone really doubting this?
    Switzerland has been the driving force behind this wonderful hobby of ours. And you can bet that it will most likely stay like this for the time being.

    By the way many complain here, it feels like some think that the average Swiss watch company is a PO Box somewhere in the countryside and that's all. By the word of the Swiss law, that is not the case. Never mind those like Rolex, VC, PP, AP, etc etc that voluntarily exceed by far the requirements of the law.

    I think you are a good poster, Ender. But denying our national heritage and pride came off as a bit insulting. If watch makers in our country had/have no pride, I guarantee you that the watch world would be close to a lifeless desert. Imagine a watch world without the Swiss watch industry.
    I believe the pursuit of quality needs a purpose and national pride may not be the overriding factor...sometimes its the opposite.

    In fact, I believe that subverting national pride is what is driving change at this moment in history...all in the name of greed.

  11. #110
    Member little big feather's Avatar
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    Re: Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?

    Here's an example of Chinese quality with a European Heritage you might say....
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/pif-...l-1837058.html
    Any watches posted may be seen as gifts,borrowed or found property and not as personal property of Little Big Feather.

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