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Help with dating Submariner

784 views 17 replies 11 participants last post by  godfrey19 
#1 ·
Hi all,

New to posting, have been a 'watcher' for a while.

Finally bought one of my grails and would like some help identifying approximate year, as there are a couple of confusing things I have noted. (No box/papers, and am obviously hoping that it isn't a nice fake, although the jeweller has guaranteed authenticity and is very reputable)
Was assuming I was buying a "vintage" sub, as I wanted the extra bit of character with it as opposed to the new ones, and paid about the same as a new one would cost.

Watch is a Submariner No date, with case stampings of "STAINLESS STEEL" and N------ serial, and the other side "ORIG ROLEX DESIGN" 14060. It also has the lugs for bracelet changing.

The face has the 4 lines of text
SUBMARINER
1000ft = 300m
SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER
OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED

As far as I can tell the "N" serial number denotes 1991 year, and the 14060 predates the chronometer certification, with the 14060M having the COSC and four-line option.

So the confusing part for me is that mine has 14060, and NOT 14060M, but has 4 lines of text, with chronometer certification, which would put it much newer than 1991..... ? I would have expected the 14060 from 1991 and without the "M" beside 14060 to only have 2 lines of text? Or did the 14060M not necessarily list the M beside it?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers
 
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#2 ·
As far as I know, no 14060 were made as a 4-liner:
Regardless, the Cal. 3000 was engineered well enough to eventually go on to gain certification from the Official Swiss Chronometer Testing Institute, but not those ticking inside the ref. 14060. Borrowing another aesthetic from its 5513 forerunner, the 14060 was always a 'two-liner', never including the 'Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified' tag on its dial that comes from passing its COSC tests.

Source: Bobswatches

Edit: this likely indicates that the dial was swapped either during service or simply by its owner.
You may want to include a picture of the watch, that might make it easier to provide feedback.
 
#8 ·
Ah, OK.
So still technically a "100% authentic" rolex as per the jeweller, but not necessarily all original vintage parts, is that correct?

I have already purchased it, but is this something I should be taking back and requesting refund, or am I "up a creek" in that it is technically all authentic rolex, just not original parts?
 
#9 ·
Yes, that's exactly it.
What you should do depends on what you want:
1. You say that you paid new-Sub money for it. That's seriously overpriced for a non-original 14060 imo. The only reason these watches command a premium today is due to their aged condition and/or potential. You've basically bought an old Rolex with new parts, could be seen as worst of both worlds. Your resale value will be affected as well (at least, if you sell today - don't know what people will want in 10-20 years).

2. You said that you purchased it because "you wanted that bit of extra character". Depending on how you define character (patina or simply the lugs/case shape?) you may or may not find that character you were looking for.

If the seller is a reputable dealer, he would likely have made the notion of the fact there were service parts involved. If not, well how reputable is he really then?
Would it be my money, my watch: I'd try to get a refund. However, I don't know what you're looking for nor what you deem important.
 
#13 ·
I'd be surprised if Rolex would put a dial stating Chronometer on a
watch when it was not actually certified as a chronometer. The watches
are certified individually during the manufacturing process by an independent
agency. If my concern is correct, the Rolex Service Center will swap out the dial
at your expense if you ever send it to them for service.

The replacement dial/hands means it's worth less to collector. However,
it looks newer because the dial/hands haven't aged.
 
#14 ·
Is it possible it is a > 2007 14060M and the jeweler wasn't aware of the distinction? From the article at Bob's Watches...

"It wasn't until as recently as 2007 that the brand sought official approval, leaving collectors with the choice when purchasing a 14060M of going for a formally sanctioned four-liner Superlative Chronometer, or sticking with the cleaner dial and more vintage-inspired two-liner"

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-blog/watch-review/last-best-rolex-submariner-ref-14060.html
 
#15 ·
I had the same situation happen to myself a few years back. I purchased a 14060, like yourself, from a Rolex AD with the same issues. I inquired about the dial and was told that many owners opted for new dials when sent in for service. As I prefer four lines, drilled lugs and five digits, I purchased the timepiece. Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Jewellery
 
#17 ·
If youre in the UK you have the right to a refund. Assuming you didn't purchase it 6 months ago. Ive come across watches like this in jewellers and theyre not technically lying but theyre being intentionally vague. I dont know enough about Rolex to risk touching one that hasn't come via an AD for this very reason. Its a more extreme example than your purchase but I have a jewellers near me and almost bought a yacht master from them. After trying it on and being told it had box and papers it took me 15 minutes to establish it didnt. It came in a box (not a rolex box), with their hand written "papers" and a guarantee. Theres a huge difference. I asked about the service history and was told it had be thoroughly checked by their watchmaker. Service is one thing, checked is another. He could have given it a shake and wiped it with a cloth. They were also selling it as the newer model (can never retain model numbers). I pointed out the differences and they just steered me onto the bezel. Asked about the links in the bracelet and was told it would definitely fit me? The price was about £3000 less than a new one from an AD. Best of luck resolving the issue.
 
#18 ·
Hi all,

New to posting, have been a 'watcher' for a while.

Finally bought one of my grails and would like some help identifying approximate year, as there are a couple of confusing things I have noted. (No box/papers, and am obviously hoping that it isn't a nice fake, although the jeweller has guaranteed authenticity and is very reputable)
Was assuming I was buying a "vintage" sub, as I wanted the extra bit of character with it as opposed to the new ones, and paid about the same as a new one would cost.

Watch is a Submariner No date, with case stampings of "STAINLESS STEEL" and N------ serial, and the other side "ORIG ROLEX DESIGN" 14060. It also has the lugs for bracelet changing.

The face has the 4 lines of text
SUBMARINER
1000ft = 300m
SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER
OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED

As far as I can tell the "N" serial number denotes 1991 year, and the 14060 predates the chronometer certification, with the 14060M having the COSC and four-line option.

So the confusing part for me is that mine has 14060, and NOT 14060M, but has 4 lines of text, with chronometer certification, which would put it much newer than 1991..... ? I would have expected the 14060 from 1991 and without the "M" beside 14060 to only have 2 lines of text? Or did the 14060M not necessarily list the M beside it?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Here's the history:

BICCHIERINI

1988 - 1999
Serial E, N, X, C, S, W, T, U
14060
Calibre 3000
Lug Holes
Tritium Dial
Two Line Dial
SWISS-T<25
Flat Four Bezel
93150 Bracelet

LUMI DIAL

2000 - 2008
Serial P, K, Y, F, D
14060M
Calibre 3130
Lug Holes
Superluminova Dial
Two Line Dial
SWISS MADE
Slim Four Bezel
93150 Bracelet

REHAUT RRR

2008 - 2010
Serial Z, M,V,G, random
14060M
Calibre 3130
Lug Holes
Superluminova Dial
Four Line "Chronometer Certified" Dial
SWISS MADE
Slim Four Bezel
93150 Bracelet
Personalised Rehaut RRR

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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