grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball
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  1. #1

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    grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    From an earlier post somebody mention that ball is using Chronometer grade movement even on their non-chronometer grade watch. Can anybody confirm this? For example, both the Engineer Master II Classic and Engineer Master II use ETA 2824-2, I'm a bit skeptical that they are using movement of the same grade.

    Here is an extract from wikipedia. "One workhorse of the ETA mechanical line is the ETA 2824-2, The 2824 is an automatic winding, twenty-five (25) jewel movement, available in four executions or grades: Standard, Elaborated (improved), Top and Chronometer levels of component quality. The key components which differ at the line of demarcation between Elaborated and Top are the barrel spring, shock protection system, pallet stones, balance wheel & hairspring and the regulator mechanism."

    So my question is that is the Engineer Master II Classic using the "Top" grade rather then the "Standard"?

    It would be good news if Ball indeed use "Top" grade movement in their non-chronometer grade watch. But that seems to defy common business logic, especially since Ball did not boast about their movement in their advertisements.

  2. #2
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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    I would not be surprised if they used chronometer grade movements. From my understanding the expensive part of a Chronometer rated watch is actually getting the watch tested. It is also time consuming.

    I cannot confirm whether or not they use a Chronometer grade movement, but I can tell you my Ball Ionosphere has lost a total of 2 seconds since Sept. 12th, which is incredible!

    I trust Ball USA will enter this debate and clear it all up for us.

    At any rate, I hop you find what you arte looking for.

    Welcome to our forum, make yourself at home!
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    MyTime2watch.blogspot.com

  3. #3

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Yes they use either COSC certified movements or COSC Certifiable movements in all of their watches..

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  5. #4

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Quote Originally Posted by obie View Post
    Yes they use either COSC certified movements or COSC Certifiable movements in all of their watches..
    Thanks, that's what I heard. But this is kind of confusing to me. For example, ETA 2824-2 is COSC certifiable if it is fitted with chronometer grade balance wheel, hairspring, etc. So we can say that the caliber ETA 2824-2 is COSC certifiable. But a ETA 2824-2 in standard grade or elaborated grade certainly does not contain the same components as a Chronometer grade ETA 2824-2.

    So, perhaps it's better to rephrase my question. What grade of movement (standard, elaborated, top?) does ball use in their non-Chronometer grade watches?

    I'm going to buy my first ball watch. I'm comparing the Engineer II Arabic and the Engineer Master II Chronometer. I like the styling of the Engineer II Arabic a little bit more and it also costs a bit less. So if there's no difference between movement quality it's a no brainer to get the Engineer II Arabic. However, if the Engineer II is only using standard grade 2836 then I would choose the Chronometer. The Engineer II Chronometer is only about 900USD after discount from my AD. I don't think I can get a Chronometer from any other brand at this price point so it's quite tempting. Thanks for your input.

  6. #5

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Quote Originally Posted by chuen View Post
    Thanks, that's what I heard. But this is kind of confusing to me. For example, ETA 2824-2 is COSC certifiable if it is fitted with chronometer grade balance wheel, hairspring, etc. So we can say that the caliber ETA 2824-2 is COSC certifiable. But a ETA 2824-2 in standard grade or elaborated grade certainly does not contain the same components as a Chronometer grade ETA 2824-2.

    So, perhaps it's better to rephrase my question. What grade of movement (standard, elaborated, top?) does ball use in their non-Chronometer grade watches?

    I'm going to buy my first ball watch. I'm comparing the Engineer II Arabic and the Engineer Master II Chronometer. I like the styling of the Engineer II Arabic a little bit more and it also costs a bit less. So if there's no difference between movement quality it's a no brainer to get the Engineer II Arabic. However, if the Engineer II is only using standard grade 2836 then I would choose the Chronometer. The Engineer II Chronometer is only about 900USD after discount from my AD. I don't think I can get a Chronometer from any other brand at this price point so it's quite tempting. Thanks for your input.
    Within most movements, there are numerous grades within in, sometimes as many as ten different variations. COSC certified is certified by that agency, and each movement is sent in, tested and returned with the certification. The next level down is essentially the same movement, but was not sent in for testing and hence does not have a certificate. There is an additional cost to have a movement COSC tested, and that means that a watch with COSC will cost more than one that wasn't tested. Basically the movement would pass COSC tests if they chose to send it in.

  7. #6

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Quote Originally Posted by obie View Post
    Within most movements, there are numerous grades within in, sometimes as many as ten different variations. COSC certified is certified by that agency, and each movement is sent in, tested and returned with the certification. The next level down is essentially the same movement, but was not sent in for testing and hence does not have a certificate. There is an additional cost to have a movement COSC tested, and that means that a watch with COSC will cost more than one that wasn't tested. Basically the movement would pass COSC tests if they chose to send it in.
    Thanks Warren, do you mean that the movements ball use in their non-COSC tested watches are "The next level down" ones? If that's true. It would be great news.

  8. #7

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    You are correct...Top two tiers...

  9. #8

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Quote Originally Posted by obie View Post
    You are correct...Top two tiers...
    Thanks Warren, that clears things up. Its also comforting to know that all 3 of Brain's Ball are running within COSC spec. The Titoni Airmaster I'm currently wearing losses 5-6 seconds each day, which is kind of annoying. I have to adjust it at least once a week.

  10. #9
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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Almost every mechanical watch I have ever had benefited from regulation by a watchmaker, even when new. The Ball watches I own ALL keep amazing time. My Silver Arabic Chronometer gains 2 sec during the day, and loses back 2 seconds when left crown up at night, meaning that at any given time it is between +1 and -1, not too shabby. My Trainmaster small seconds keeps atomic time, just about never needs to be hacked or reset. But that one was in fact regulated. As a new watch breaks in, and the oils move around, there often comes a time when a trip to the watchmaker is indicated. Anyone who can afford a new Ball watch can certainly afford a quick $20 at the watchmaker.

  11. #10

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    Re: grade of movement on a non-Chronometer ball

    Quote Originally Posted by obie View Post
    Within most movements, there are numerous grades within in, sometimes as many as ten different variations. COSC certified is certified by that agency, and each movement is sent in, tested and returned with the certification. The next level down is essentially the same movement, but was not sent in for testing and hence does not have a certificate. There is an additional cost to have a movement COSC tested, and that means that a watch with COSC will cost more than one that wasn't tested. Basically the movement would pass COSC tests if they chose to send it in.
    I just notice somebody post similar question in another forum. (http://jholbrook.proboards33.com/ind...7796680&page=2)

    Unfortunately, Jeremy from Ball have a different answer.

    "All Ball Chronometers start with Top COSC movements.
    Ball calibres start with Top grade movements.
    Other ETA-based nonchronometers start with Elabore movements.

    Modifications & engravings vary depending on the model."

    From my understanding, Elabore grade movements are not fitted with chronometer grade parts. They share the same parts as Standard grade movements. Only the Top grade movements are fitted with chronometer grade parts. So it appears most watches in Ball's lineup are using standard grade parts. That's not good news.

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