"What?s In a Name? - War of Words"
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  1. #1
    Member HOROLOGIST007's Avatar
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    "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"
    It is time to stop calling a “spade” a shovel. There are two types of watches – “genuine or fake” – “luxury or Lie™?”
    Then why are “counterfeit” watches called “replicas” by the sellers of these “counterfeits”?

    rep·li·ca
    noun
    1. “an exact copy or model of something.”


    VERSUS

    gen·u·ine
    adjective
    1. “truly what something is said to be; authentic.”
    Acknowledgement: Webster dictionary.

    Now, as close as these counterfeit (fake) watches are getting to the real article in appearance, and they truly are getting mighty close in appearance with the latest breed of “Ultra Super Fakes™” (my terminology), they cannot under any stretch of the imagination be termed “replicas”

    Genuine “luxury” brands are the epitome of Haute Horology – that is watchmaking at its highest level.
    Some cynics may understand it to refer more specifically to high dollar watchmaking rather than high quality watchmaking, but make no mistake designing, developing and manufacturing a new movement is the highest level of “Haute Horology”. Remembering it took Horologists 107 years just to turn a simple chronograph in a self-winding chronograph timepiece!

    It takes literally years for the like of Rolex to develop the likes of its new “Parachrom™” balance spring, or its new “Paraflex™” shock protection, even adding a blue “Cerachrom” bezel to their new model GMT took years of research and testing!
    You see Cerachom (Rolex's own version of ceramic) was introduced on the GMT first in 2005. And for years, we were told that making a two-tone ceramic anything was impossible. But this year, Rolex has gone and built a mono-block cerachrom bezel by a patented process that actually has the bezel start off as completely blue, and while still porous, add the black coloring. So, this isn't two pieces of ceramic next to each other, it's a singular piece, and Rolex is the only brand in the world to produce something like this. It's so difficult to do that it's actually patented.
    Acknowledgement: Hodinkee: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ha...-specs-pricing
    There is no way, in their wildest dreams could the counterfeiters develop or to be exact “replicate” these ultra-advanced developments. Nor can they “replicate” the likes of “silicon” balance wheels used by the luxury manufacturer OMEGA in their in-house 8500 range of calibers.

    Therefore the word “replica” as used by these counterfeits sales companies is not “Haute Horology” but an incorrect play on words.

    Furthermore, if we add the after sales service, warranty periods of 5 years, new intervals between servicing of 10 years – then the gap between “genuine” and “replica” (fake/counterfeit) watches gets wider and wider apart!



    Care to spot the “genuine”from the “replica” (counterfeit/fake)

    In above example, the “Luxury or Lie™” course would teach some 6 immediate ways, just from the dial to distinguish between this “Ultra Super Fake™” and the genuine.

    Or again here, with the very heavily counterfeited Panerai





    Care to spot the inconsistencies now between genuine and “replica” (counterfeit/fake)

    Once again the “Luxury or Lie™” course would teach some 3 immediate ways, just from the movement to distinguish between this super fake and the genuine.

    No – absolutely incorrect to term these or indeed any “counterfeit” watches as “replicas”.
    Actually these “fakes” tend to replicate themselves, inherent mistakes made by one counterfeiter tends to be “replicated” by the next counterfeiter as can be seen here”


    Versus this “genuine” can you spot the glaring error?



    As we can see above, the fake has spelt Moscow as “MOSCUW” – we can only wonder what attention the counterfeiters paid to the movement quality!

    Fake watches – or so termed “replicas” are bad news to our industry, making up 7% to 8% of the world trade in watches. Some 40 million fake watches are made every year, compared to 30m genuine Swiss watches!
    I am seeing genuine people being “duped” out of large some of money nearly every day – all in the name of “replica”.

    Adam R. Harris is the course developer and instructor of “Luxury or Lie™”, a course
    offered through the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors, Columbia, PA. For details about the next course contact [email protected] or register here.
    ©Adam R. Harris 2016

    Parachrom, Paraflex, Cerachrom are trademarks of Rolex S.A.
    Genuine Rolex photo, courtesy of Rolex SA
    saxoo and Horohollis like this.
    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL. THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

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    Adam

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    Interesting info!
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  3. #3
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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    You've repeatedly demonstrated your lack of competency in identifying whether a watch is real or fake.

    How can you in good conscience post spam asking people to pay you for this disservice?
    jjcs83, cb1111, radger and 5 others like this.

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    Member svorkoetter's Avatar
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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    rep·li·ca
    noun
    1. “an exact copy or model of something.”
    2. "any close or exact copy or reproduction. "

    or, from the OED:

    An exact copy or model of something, especially one on a smaller scale:a replica of the Empire State Building

    Clearly a replica of the Empire State Building does not duplicate all the technology that went into the original.

    Furthermore, replica firearms are called "replicas", although they are missing some technology of the original, like the ability to be fired, being made out of metal, etc.

    Remembering it took Horologists 107 years just to turn a simple chronograph in a self-winding chronograph timepiece!
    I'm pretty sure there weren't chronographs, self-winding or otherwise, 107 years ago.

    Therefore the word “replica” as used by these counterfeits sales companies is not “Haute Horology” but an incorrect play on words.
    The word "replica" used for fake watches is simply sugar coating that they are FAKE.




    Care to spot the “genuine”from the “replica” (counterfeit/fake)

    Well, considering the first picture is either a render, or a heavily Photoshopped photo, you can't tell anything from it. Even if it were a fake, all evidence thereof could have been edited out.



    No – absolutely incorrect to term these or indeed any “counterfeit” watches as “replicas”.
    Sorry, you can't just go redefining well understood meanings of words.

    I'm sure this thread will be closed soon, as it violates the "no replicas" discussion rule.
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    ::subwave:: Chronograph Sea-Gull "1963" ChronographVortix Evolution (Explorer/Ranger homage) Vortix Adventurer (Sub/Explorer homage) • Black Lagoon (Black Bay homage) • Velocimaster V-33 (X-33 homage) • Штурманские (Sturmanskie) Chronograph Полет (Poljot)/Sekonda Alarm • Восток Амфибия (Vostok Amphibia) 420 with Cavalry Dial • Timex Expedition

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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    In fact, "replica" simply means anything that imitates with the intent to deceive someone into thinking that it is an original. Take a replica painting for instance. It would be impossible to produce a replica of the Mona Lisa that 100% matches up to the original and would deceive learned art experts. But it's a replica none the less (it might, for example, fool 95% of people including a few experts). Same goes for these ultra super fakes or whatever you're calling them. Just because you have learned a few ways to discern the finer details doesn't make them any less of a replica (trying to be passed off as something they're not).

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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    We don't patent things because they are difficult to do. We patent things because they represent our unique intellectual property that we intend to protect in order to reap a profit.

  8. #7
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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    So we're allowed to discuss fakes now? That would not be such a bad thing in my books, as it will allow us, within the community, to educate each other on how to tell genuine from fake, luxury from lie, and fact from fiction for ourselves. As I once wrote in a post where discussion about a fake was shut down, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime".

  9. #8
    Member arcadelt's Avatar
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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    Quote Originally Posted by HOROLOGIST007 View Post
    Now, as close as these counterfeit (fake) watches are getting to the real article in appearance...they cannot under any stretch of the imagination be termed “replicas”
    Quote Originally Posted by imagwai View Post
    In fact, "replica" simply means anything that imitates with the intent to deceive someone into thinking that it is an original.
    There is no value judgement inherent in the term "replica", nor does the term import deceit. Therefore, just because it is bad, doesn't mean it is not a replica, and just because someone copied something doesn't necessarily mean that they intended to deceive. There are many good and poor replicas in the world, just as there are many legitimate copies or models of something.
    imagwai and Gazza74 like this.

  10. #9
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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    Quote Originally Posted by svorkoetter View Post
    2. "any close or exact copy or reproduction. "

    or, from the OED:

    An exact copy or model of something, especially one on a smaller scale:a replica of the Empire State Building

    Clearly a replica of the Empire State Building does not duplicate all the technology that went into the original.

    Furthermore, replica firearms are called "replicas", although they are missing some technology of the original, like the ability to be fired, being made out of metal, etc.



    I'm pretty sure there weren't chronographs, self-winding or otherwise, 107 years ago.



    The word "replica" used for fake watches is simply sugar coating that they are FAKE.


    Well, considering the first picture is either a render, or a heavily Photoshopped photo, you can't tell anything from it. Even if it were a fake, all evidence thereof could have been edited out.





    Sorry, you can't just go redefining well understood meanings of words.

    I'm sure this thread will be closed soon, as it violates the "no replicas" discussion rule.
    Agreed, except for the chronograph part- Louis Moinet invented it in 1816, so they were around 200 years ago. On a larger scale, they appeared in the late 19th century. Moinet's invention and the first automatic chrono (Zenith cal. 3019PHC El Primero, 1969) are 153 years apart.

    Generally, what I have seen in the "fake busters" forums and threads in terms of efficiency makes me doubt that the course can be of much use in reality. The accuracy of a coin toss is hardly any good with watches. Sorry, but that's the brutal truth. Hydrocarbon mignt have put it rather harshly, but spot on.
    hydrocarbon and cb1111 like this.
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  11. #10
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    Re: "What’s In a Name? - War of Words"

    From our rules: No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a moderator or the site owner. In general, any posts that involves the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is prohibited.

    This thread was pre-approved and is an add for a NAWCC sponsored course in the NAWCC sub-forum and is not an invitation to discuss fakes.

    I get the teaching a man to fish business, but you also teach the crooks who make this junk how to make a better fake, and in the end the fisherman gets frustrated and becomes a vegetarian.

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