OLD THREAD - IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth
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  1. #1
    Member CzechMate's Avatar
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    Question OLD THREAD - IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    So, people of this great project, here we will discuss the future of this project.

    Needles to say, I need your input, your help, your enthusiasm and all your will and power.

    First, lets have a look at the survey results:

    78 responses (as of 30.1.2016 22:03 CET)

    41% Very interested
    43,6% Quite interested
    15,4% Not really interested

    43,6% Very likely to buy
    43,6% Difficult to decide atm
    12,8% Not very likely

    11,5% Does not acknowledge the need to pay a downpayment once the design is finished (???)

    That means two things:
    Only 69% responded to our survey
    Only 28,9% of total participants is very interested and 30% is quite interested, so in total, 59% is interested of total 113 participants (some have two watches, but they count as one participant).

    Here are the responses of the "Not really interested":

    Management team exhibited a low tolerance threshold towards constructive criticism.
    Taking too long.
    I recently tried out the 42 military, which is the reference case for this project and found it a tad too big for my wrist. Sorry about that
    To be perfectly honest, I was really unhappy with the choice of dial. I belong to the "it's just too cluttered" camp. I haven't resigned from the project because I am hopeful that I end up being pleasantly surprised by the final design, but I'm obviously skeptical. As of late, I haven't been terribly active because everything has just moved so slowly.
    Case size may be too large and not manageable.
    its been drawn out far to long and the votes have nearly all went against what i like
    Hi, I bought a new watch and a lack of money already .Pzdr
    I was in down to the last 3 choices, when number 3 won I just could stay in. I have spoke to others involved in this project and they all agree with me, which brings me to wonder, how did it ever get chosen. You have run this project seamlessly, commend you on that, but I cannot proceed with that watch.
    I was highly interested in the beginning, but the direction the project took made me go on. Sorry Guys. I strongly appriciate what youndid and hiw you organized everything. Thanks!
    The votes and design has moved away from something i would be interested in.
    I was saving money for this watch to buy, but in the meanwhile I bought other one.

    Unfortunately, there is 35 people who did not respond and we don't know what is their reason for not being active. The options are quite limited:
    1. loss of interest
    2. no time
    3. personal / health issues
    4. other


    So, what are the main challenges we are facing now:
    1. Uwe is missing
    2. Our court designer is not happy
    3. Steinhart will not produce the watch under current conditions (budget etc...) if there is less than 100 commited buyers
    4. People are quiet and we don't know why
    5. Some people are unhappy with the way we manage the project (low tolerance to critique)


    I would like to hear your thoughts.

    I the mean time, I will think about possible scenarios.

    Design process is postponed until we decide what next. Of course you are free to participate in current design discussion.

    (I said postponed, not canceled, please make no mistakes, this project will go on unless clearly stated otherwise!!!)
    Last edited by CzechMate; January 31st, 2016 at 12:58.
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  2. #2
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    Frankie,

    You started this new thread while I was composing my response to the other, so I am going to take the liberty of repeating my thoughts here:

    I want to take this opportunity to speak as a sometimes quiet participant in this project. Most times, if I don't say anything, it means one of the following:

    1. I have mixed feelings. I may like several versions that are being proposed.
    2. I don't know what to say. I am not always able to express my thoughts in correct terminology.
    3. I don't feel comfortable expressing my opinion at this time, or I want to see what others say first.
    4. Or, rarely, I am too busy right now.

    Notice that I did not say "I don't care." I do care. The fact that I check this forum several times a day reminds me of that. Making a forum watch takes even longer than a baby from start to finish. It is difficult, but it is fun.

    I have purchased many other watches through the last 15 years that I had a chance to put some of my own thoughts into. This is far from the longest wait. In April or May of this year, I expect to receive a watch (from another company) that I put my original deposit down in January, 2012, or 4 years ago this month. The reason I made my deposit back then was I know that the guy who makes the watches makes an excellent product, as I have 6 other watches by him. Many other people also are in that project. We did not know for certain what the watch would look like or many of the details about it. But 100 of those watches were pre-purchased that way.

    I got onto the Proteus bandwagon late in the game, so I did not have a chance to participate in the back and forth of the design phase. But when I saw the final design, I thought - WOW! I have to get that watch!

    And that is the reason I am in this project. The moderators and the manufacturer - Uwe, Czechmate, Triton, and Herr Steinhart - have proven to me through their past work that they can make a watch that I will love. I would advise any of the participants who feel discouraged at any time to look at the gallery on the Steinhart web site and remind themselves of how many beautiful and very special project watches Steinhart has done. Thank goodness Project Thor will not be done exactly to my specifications, or they would probably sell only one watch.

    So to conclude this ramble, I want to say that I am in this project to have fun and be a part of making a beautiful watch come to life. Let's keep this process moving forward.

    And I want to say thanks to everyone for their participation.

    Best regards,

    Dave
    CzechMate and lvt like this.

  3. #3
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    Let's start with why Triton the Designer is not happy?

    Other than that, the main problem is, as I see it, the too polarising decision regarding the GMT subdial. I mean, it is the feature that even if 50+% of the participants like it, it will perhaps be the single most important reason less than 100 participants will want to buy the watch in the end.

    Solutions? We can try to fill the waiting list. All those who will join now will be most probably happy with the current design choices. 19 new members, happy with these choices, will raise the chance of success significantly, IMHO.

    Another solution is a step back and another vote regarding the GMT subdial, this time with four options, and only one can be selected.
    -I strongly prefer half circle,
    - I prefer half circle, but can live with the full circle,
    - strongly prefer full circle,
    - full circle, but can live with half circle.
    Last edited by Okapi001; January 30th, 2016 at 23:30.
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  5. #4
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    IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    Wow. I didn't know triton wasn't happy. Would be keen to find out why too.

    I actually typed out a response to your original thread. But never ended up posting it.... But some of the comments above confirm my initial thoughts:

    1. Give a man too much rope and he'll hang himself. This is the first project I've experienced where there is so much room for member participation, which is meant to be a good thing! But unfortunately, I think it's led to disputes and challenges of project management, design and process.
    2. This, in turn, has lead to longer waits between votes and a process can be trying to follow due to the large amount of changes and tweaks... Further more, people without much talent in mocking up their thoughts may feel left out.

    I have rather limited forum watch experience, but all projects I've been involved in have had a very firm tone to the choices the members were allowed to make.... Sometimes that made people leave, but the process was quicker.

    It's impossible to please a 100 people and it's also is very difficult to keep the interest of these people. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a solution for you.... It'd seem a waste to stop here considering all the hard work, but steinhart is a business and no 100 members = no $ = no honey.


    Cheers, Wen
    Last edited by Soulspawn; January 30th, 2016 at 23:43.
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  6. #5
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    Quote Originally Posted by CzechMate View Post

    So, what are the main challenges we are facing now:
    1. Uwe is missing
    2. Our court designer is not happy
    3. Steinhart will not produce the watch under current conditions (budget etc...) if there is less than 100 commited buyers
    4. People are quiet and we don't know why
    5. Some people are unhappy with the way we manage the project (low tolerance to critique)
    Czechmate, gentlemen.

    I'll let you have my thoughts to each point, on the basis that they are just MY thoughts

    1. Probably the most significant point is Uwe. Not for the sake of the project, that's just watches, but out of concern for a fellow man the most important thing is to find out what's wrong there. I'm afraid, I've got nothing that you won't have already tried. But I'd recommend that this is your main focus, doing what you can. The rest doesn't really matter.

    2. Why is Triton unhappy? Criticism? Bored? Too busy? If we know what's made him unhappy we can try and address it. Without him - no project, so let's get to the bottom of that.

    3. Fair enough, I wouldn't expect them to. That said, I think our only option is to try and get to the point where money is needed and then take a view. But we cannot expect them to incur costs. Once they do it's our turn to pony up, or shut up.

    4&5 To be honest, this is just a symptom of running a project made up of disparate strangers from around the world, with only one thing in common. I don't see your job is to keep us all happy. It's to facilitate the project in the best way you can. You've done that. If we like it we stay, if we don't we leave. That's not your responsibility. It's all of ours.

    Fact: You will lose people.
    Fact: People will drop off or go quiet if they don't like the design.
    Fact: People will criticise the way you run the project (Usually when they don't like the outcomes).

    These facts are as certain as death and taxes and you can only do so much. You attempts to keep us all happy, and find out why people are not, are admirable. But you will not solve these problems. Your best hope, with our help, is to keep designing and voting, generate new interest if and where we can, and hopefully when we reach the crossroads where we have to put our money where our mouth is we will have enough people.

    My main plea, as I've made before is: if you know 100% you will NOT buy the watch, pull out so we all know where we stand. If there is still even a 1% chance you might then stay on board and make your mark.

    Czechmate: it's said often, but worth repeating. Thanks for all your efforts. It's much appreciated. But remember, it's not your family, it's not your work, it's not your health. It's just watches. Don't stress, it's not worth it.
    Last edited by Macdaz; January 30th, 2016 at 23:49.


    "A problem shared is a problem two people have got." - Arthur Daley


    Collection In order of acquisition: Omega SMP 300 | Accurist |TW Steel | Breil | Victorinox Groundforce | Orient Mako |Orient Mako XL | Steinhart OVM | Suunto ambit 2R | Smiths Everest (Timefactors) | Christopher Ward C60 Trident 600 Pro | Christopher Ward C3 Malvern Chrono | Seiko Recraft SNKN01 | Christopher Ward C8 Pilot Mk2 Vintage U-2, And that's it. NO MORE. Vostok Komandirskie 1965 | Laco Aachen | Christopher Ward C8 Flyer Mk1 | Seiko SRP315K1 Monster | Christopher Ward C7 Automatic | Steinhart Aviation Automatic | Christopher Ward C65 GMT.

  7. #6
    Member Captain Scrumpy's Avatar
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    I would dearly love to see this project not just come off, but really succeed. The project managers and triton have worked so hard and it's such a hard task. I hate organizing the office Xmas meal for the same reasons and that's a 1000th of the work. It's simply not possible to please all of the people all of the time.

    I think the subdial and overall dial choice is a bit of a marmite situation. For countries that don't have marmite think vegimite - you either love it or you hate it. It's polarizing with not many people thinking it's simply 'ok'.

    I was a strong proponent of the second choice dial with round GMT. I'm a fan of clean, uncluttered and more simplistic designs - I love grand seiko snowflake - if that gives you an idea where I'm coming from. But my view is no more or less important than any of the other participants. I'm totally cool with the democracy. I want the project to succeed so much I've desperately tried to overcome my dislike of the half circle GMT subdial but I know in my heart that I will probably never love the watch because it's just not my taste.

    i'm not sure what to do for the best but I will work with any ideas put out there. I have owned 8 Steinharts with the OVM mk1, Titanium 500 and O1 vintage dual time still in my collection - 3 out of 10. 30% - That's more than any other brand and I'm a extreme serial flipper. I love Steinhart watches, the QC has been a bit sketchy at times but the customer service is second to none. anyhow, I'm rambling, I've been drinking beer... What I'm trying to say is I want be positive, constructive and help where I can. I'm open to ideas.

  8. #7
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    Firstly I agree with pretty much Macdaz posted above.

    I also wasn't keen on the dial choice originally but I've come round to it but it seems strange that this is one of the main criticisms of the design. Anyway, I'd be happy to go back to a dial re-vote if it means a better chance of this watch becoming reality.

    I'd also share my thanks and gratitude to the team involved in making this project happen and even though I've only recently joined I can see a lot has gone into the whole process.
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  9. #8
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    There's a few comments here and on the other thread about revisiting the dial vote but a few points to consider. I'm not saying no, but some words of caution.

    1) if the vote doesn't change, what then?
    2) what precedent do we set? If you don't like a vote, go quiet and you may get a second chance?
    3) What about all the other votes that were only won by a small margin? Do we revisit those too? Many would be much more active if we had an unlimited budget. Shall we go back and have another go at that?
    4) How fair is it to those who left the project because they didn't like an outcome, only for them to find we've changed our minds?

    What I'm saying is, even if we change the result you will only make those who are massively opposed happy. Those that were happy with the original result will then feel hard done by, they will be unhappy and around we go again. I fear the unintended consequences won't heal the pain, just move it.
    JSal, Aid1987, CzechMate and 1 others like this.


    "A problem shared is a problem two people have got." - Arthur Daley


    Collection In order of acquisition: Omega SMP 300 | Accurist |TW Steel | Breil | Victorinox Groundforce | Orient Mako |Orient Mako XL | Steinhart OVM | Suunto ambit 2R | Smiths Everest (Timefactors) | Christopher Ward C60 Trident 600 Pro | Christopher Ward C3 Malvern Chrono | Seiko Recraft SNKN01 | Christopher Ward C8 Pilot Mk2 Vintage U-2, And that's it. NO MORE. Vostok Komandirskie 1965 | Laco Aachen | Christopher Ward C8 Flyer Mk1 | Seiko SRP315K1 Monster | Christopher Ward C7 Automatic | Steinhart Aviation Automatic | Christopher Ward C65 GMT.

  10. #9
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Okapi001 View Post
    Let's start with why Triton the Designer is not happy?

    Other than that, the main problem is, as I see it, the too polarising decision regarding the GMT subdial. I mean, it is the feature that even if 50+% of the participants like it, it will perhaps be the single most important reason less than 100 participants will want to buy the watch in the end.

    Solutions? We can try to fill the waiting list. All those who will join now will be most probably happy with the current design choices. 19 new members, happy with these choices, will raise the chance of success significantly, IMHO.

    Another solution is a step back and another vote regarding the GMT subdial, this time with four options, and only one can be selected.
    -I strongly prefer half circle,
    - I prefer half circle, but can live with the full circle,
    - strongly prefer full circle,
    - full circle, but can live with half circle.
    First thing is still trying to figure out Uwe. Nothing to do with the project but important to know he is ok! Also hearing that Triton is frustrated, I think that is important to get to the root of so we can try to mitigate/fix that. After that I am a fan of moving on with the process.

    To go along with this we still haven't finalized what the GMT subdial is going to look like in a final version. A couple of votes ago it was mentioned that if the half circle GMT was picked that we would still have to decide stylistically what it would look like (there were 2 different version shown in the vote and I liked the other version significantly better). The half circle GMT wasn't my first choice, but it can still be done in a simple classy way.

    The project has slowed down quite a bit which is frustrating, but this type of project takes time and everyone from the designer, our managers, and all of us have real life to deal with so it isn't a surprise that sometimes things take awhile.

    I'm still in this regardless because although some votes have gone my way and some haven't (about 50/50) nothing has been a dealbreaker and we have come up with something quite unique so far that I wouldn't have thought of. Overall I really enjoy the collaboration, and in some threads I respond more than others....for much the same reasons CBM_DOC listed above. I look forward to continuing on with the project.
    Last edited by ciclismosam; January 31st, 2016 at 01:29.
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  11. #10
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    Re: IMPORTANT - Lets face the truth

    As for #4, it's relatively easy. There are still free slots on the waiting list, so they can join again.

    As for the repeating the vote, we don't have to deal with that at the moment, but the fact is, we don't need the design that 60 people will love, we need the design that 100 people will like enough to pay close to €1000 for it. And those may not neccesarily be the same designs. Also, we must not forget that this will probably be the most expensive project watch on WUS so far, so potential buyers will be less likely to fork out the $$$$ if there will be a design feature they don't really like.
    Last edited by Okapi001; January 31st, 2016 at 01:28.
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