Definition of beat error
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  1. #1
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    Definition of beat error

    Dear forum members, first post for me, and I have a question: what exactly
    is beat error? More precisely, let us denote by t_1 the time between a tic
    and the following toc, and by t_2 the time between a toc and the following
    tic of a watch movement. Assume that these quantities are stable enough.
    There seems to be disagreement on whether the beat error is t_1-t_2 or
    (t_1-t_2)/2. In particular:

    Supporting (t_1-t_2)/2
    * We have this document of the Witschi company
    http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/...%20watches.pdf
    paragraph 1.2.2 in page 5. And other similar manuals from Witschi.
    * We have no precise definition from the makers of the Vibrograh machine,
    neverthelss in this manual
    http://greinervibrograf.com/appl/file.php?id=231
    at page 4, we find a diagram indicating that the beat error is the
    distance between the two parallel lines of dots generated by the machine,
    and this, in fact, turns out to be (t_1-t_2)/2.

    Supporting t_1-t_2
    * We have this page on the MicroSet website
    http://www.bmumford.com/mset/beaterrormode.html
    informing us that "MicroSet will measure the length of two beats and
    compare them. It will then display the difference between them".
    * We have other resources on the web, for instance this page
    http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.c
    om/en/Glossary/Beat_Error
    * We have a few posts on this very forum, for instance lysanderxiii's
    post in this thread
    https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/beat...at-583431.html
    tells us that "2.8 ms means the swing in one direction is 2.8 ms longer
    than the the other direction".

    I couldn't find a definite answer, yet I didn't venture into the technical
    litterature. Anyway the fact that Wischi (industry standard) and MicroSet
    (very solid repuatation) seem to disagree on their definition needs to be
    explained, doesn't it? If one had the two mechines side by side, he could
    throw a movement intentionally out of beat by various amounts, and then
    compare the readings.

    Hope that someone can explain my little impasse, and thank you all in
    advance for reading!

  2. #2
    Member mpalmer's Avatar
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Welcome to the forums!
    "The stuff that dreams are made of…" - RGM ‘801 EE Motor Barrel’

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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Quote Originally Posted by contrate_wheel View Post
    Dear forum members, first post for me, and I have a question: what exactly
    is beat error?
    Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9tOHiPQpbw
    Apollonaught likes this.

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  5. #4
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Quote Originally Posted by contrate_wheel View Post
    Dear forum members, first post for me, and I have a question: what exactly is beat error? . . . .
    Doh.

    Lack of symmetry in the half oscillations of the balance.

    Are we going to have to go through a big rig-a-ma-row or do you just want the source code (or are you wanting us to help you attempt to write your own)?

    Java?

    What is needed is a better gain algorithm/filter.
    Attached Images Attached Images


  6. #5
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Quote Originally Posted by El @ View Post
    El, is this your you tube post?

  7. #6
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    To OP: Each manufacturer describes the derivation of output for its particular device so that users will understand the meaning. At the end of the day, regardless of computation, "zero" beat error is the objective...and ends up being the same regardless of calculation method...there is no discrepancy in this. Witschi is the standard, and using Mumford in the same sentence is an insult (of course in the one case it is an insult to Witschi and in the other to Mumford...you are a philosopher, so I'm sure you'll figure this out). Best regards and welcome to f6, BG

  8. #7
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Quote Originally Posted by BenchGuy View Post
    El, is this your you tube post?
    No, it's my attempt to help the OP posting a link to a pertaining video, if you don't mind and allow me.

  9. #8
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Quote Originally Posted by BenchGuy View Post
    To OP: Each manufacturer describes the derivation of output for its particular device so that users will understand the meaning. At the end of the day, regardless of computation, "zero" beat error is the objective...and ends up being the same regardless of calculation method...there is no discrepancy in this. Witschi is the standard, and using Mumford in the same sentence is an insult (of course in the one case it is an insult to Witschi and in the other to Mumford...you are a philosopher, so I'm sure you'll figure this out). Best regards and welcome to f6, BG
    Thank you BG for your answer! So, as I get it, the precise definition is
    known to depend on the manufacturer, and that's fine for me. Pithy was
    right in his guess that I am writing my own timing software. In fact I
    already have it, and considering that there is no open source timing
    software around, I am thinking to release it as free software. As you may
    immagine, there is some polishing that a program made for personal use
    needs to undergo before it can be published. That is the origin of my
    question: I intend to display as beat error the same number that the
    majority of users expects to see, and not double nor half of it. Having to
    choose, I opt for the Witschi definition (no insult intended here for
    other manufacturers, but I agree with you that they have the authority to
    be considered the standard).

    I hope to be able to contribute my program soon, it has been in an
    unfinished state for almost one year now, but in a few more week ends it
    will be ready, at least under Linux.

  10. #9
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    I myself prefer Matlab.

  11. #10
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    Re: Definition of beat error

    Hi there,

    Quote Originally Posted by contrate_wheel View Post
    I opt for the Witschi definition (no insult intended here for
    other manufacturers, but I agree with you that they have the authority to
    be considered the standard).
    Authority? based on what? The price?

    I'm pretty sure that Chinese manufacturers sell much more than Witschi. And standard should be what the majority uses, and not the one with the most overpriced equipment.

    However, if you create an own software, do it better than all: Displaying the error in milliseconds is pretty useless, disregarding wheter you display the time difference, half of it, or 37,58% of it. Do it better and display the error in degrees. This would help immediately to turn the spring collet to the right position with the first attempt.

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
    Last edited by Roland Ranfft; September 21st, 2015 at 17:51.
    David.Boettcher likes this.

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