ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding
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  1. #1
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    ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    There has been fairly constant referrals and comments on winding/over winding issues with
    certain ETA/Sellita calibers particularly the widely used 2824 series.

    Is this due to metallurgy, wheel design-tooth irregularities-or overall movement design? (Not lack of maintenance.)

    This is an issue begging for educated horologists/watchmakers studied answers-not just a variety of forum opinions.

    Your input is respectfully solicited.
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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    Quote Originally Posted by SOGDIVER View Post
    There has been fairly constant referrals and comments on winding/over winding issues with
    certain ETA/Sellita calibers particularly the widely used 2824 series.

    Is this due to metallurgy, wheel design-tooth irregularities-or overall movement design?...
    I suspect such complaints occur with regularity due to the large numbers of such movements... they are quite common and quite popular and constitute a high percentage of good automatic movements (cheap Chinese and Japanese movements excepted -- few complain about them because the expectations are relatively low).
    "Forever is composed of nows." - Emily Dickinson

    "The watch has to be surrounded by a history.
    You need more than just a great design. You need to create an atmosphere around the product.
    Who is the company behind it? Why are they using this material?
    People need to be able to identify the watch with themselves. It's based on emotion." - Ralph Furter

    ...that's just my opinion and I've been wrong before and will be again and might be now!

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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    Based on complaints (or lack thereof), I'd say the problem is limited to ETA 2824 (not -2) and Sellita SW200 (no dash) as both had a different tooth profile and have been updated precisely for this issue. Now I'm sure there are still examples of modern ETA 2824 and spin-offs failing but I haven't seen a flood of complaints.

    Early in my watch hobby, I researched the problem and found pages that pointed to the errant parts and replacements. The parts in question were the winding pinion, the crown wheel and the ratchet wheel. I'm not sure when ETA made the change as they had a no-dash, -1 and -2 version, where Sellita fixed the problem with the -1 version. One thing I remember about the change is that the older profile had a lower pressure angle, meaning the teeth were straighter and skinnier. A page listed the parts needed to upgrade either movement to the latest profile. If I could find such pages, I would link to them. On an older site, posts pointed to older versions of the tech sheets but they are unavailable today.

    One poster on the tz-uk site indicated that ETA didn't spec lubricant on the crown wheel where it rides on the main plate, and subsequent wear was a problem. I see the current sheet shows five "drops" for the gear, far from no lubricant.

    While I wouldn't go out of your way to hand crank, I wouldn't shy away from it either.
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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    In my experience it's all due to the auto winding module. All the 28xx wind very smooth without the module in place and then have a tight almost grinding feel in hand wind when the module is in place. The added pressure is mainly from the reversing wheels and is why it is common to see the staff broken on reversing wheels, I suspect a slightly larger reversing wheel setup would solve this. The single biggest failing on what could be the best off the shelf movement made.
    The 2892-a2 is by and far the greatest movement ever made but it's failing is the mainspring which supposedly Longines has addressed in conjunction with the escapement for prolonged run time.
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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    Quote Originally Posted by ExpiredWatchdog View Post
    One poster on the tz-uk site indicated that ETA didn't spec lubricant on the crown wheel where it rides on the main plate, and subsequent wear was a problem. I see the current sheet shows five "drops" for the gear, far from no lubricant.
    The oldest 2824-2 tech guide I have is from 2009, and it shows that you lubricate the crown wheel where it rides on the barrel bridge (not the main plate). I think it's always shown this, so not sure I buy the idea that this wasn't lubricated. The issue isn't hand winding per se, but excessive hand winding, and lack of preventative maintenance. It can and does lead to wear on the barrel bridge:



    Here you can see the extent of the wear:



    For me the ratchet wheel failures have always been on the Sellita calibers, and rarely happen on the ETA versions. And yes I've seen the SW200-1 version with sheared off teeth as well, but my sample size is much smaller on those than for the ETA movements.

    Cheers, Al
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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    @ Archer: My bad, I misquoted the tz-uk poster from memory and got the wrong parts.

    To quote (walkerwek1958 from July 6, '17 https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...24-handwinding): "The second problem area with the 2824 is the winding wheel and sliding pinion. Compared to older hand - wound designs the parts are small and not robust. However, the problem that afflicts the 2824 is a bit more subtle: during hand-winding the back of the winding wheel contacts the mainplate. Eventually this leads to wear, and this accentuates wear between the stem and the mainplate because the stem no longer runs true. ETA don't stipulate lubrication to the back of the winding wheel but I always apply a spot of grease. Even on watches that are relatively new there's always a witness mark caused by the wheel making contact. Eventually the wear to the mainplate causes the winding wheel to lose engagement when hand-winding, causing a 'slipping' feeling through the crown. in handset the sliding pinion won't engage properly and the handsetting will be erratic."

    I see the current 2824-2 tech sheet does indicate 9504 on the surface in question. I have no idea about the pedigree of his documentation (or if there is any) as he doesn't mention the source of his information.

    Sorry for the mis-information; my shortcomings are duly noted.
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    It rubs it's skin with the lotion, or else it gets the hose again!
    I love the smell of carbamide in the morning, it smells like VICTORY.
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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    This is an excellent cumulative response. Kudos to those who have given insight into the challenge of this hand winding issue.
    ***************************

    NOW- I need to experiment with an ETA caliber 2892-a2, with a Parachrome blue mainspring by Rolex, minus module;Longines modified mainspring and escapement.
    Then I can transpose this custom caliber into a Rolex 5508 or 5510 /5512 rare case-and have an almost perfect Frankenwatch. Bet it would be unique.

    But then I have a 1969 Rolex 1680 reference red Submariner that has given its original owner 49 years of virtually trouble-free service and timekeeping
    under stressful military conditions without a hiccup-with regular maintenance.
    Last edited by SOGDIVER; 1 Week Ago at 06:30.

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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    ^ You are a glutton for punishment.
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    It rubs it's skin with the lotion, or else it gets the hose again!
    I love the smell of carbamide in the morning, it smells like VICTORY.
    That ain't a double, I just like to stutter.

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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    Quote Originally Posted by ExpiredWatchdog View Post
    @ Archer: My bad, I misquoted the tz-uk poster from memory and got the wrong parts.

    To quote (walkerwek1958 from July 6, '17 https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...24-handwinding): "The second problem area with the 2824 is the winding wheel and sliding pinion. Compared to older hand - wound designs the parts are small and not robust. However, the problem that afflicts the 2824 is a bit more subtle: during hand-winding the back of the winding wheel contacts the mainplate. Eventually this leads to wear, and this accentuates wear between the stem and the mainplate because the stem no longer runs true. ETA don't stipulate lubrication to the back of the winding wheel but I always apply a spot of grease. Even on watches that are relatively new there's always a witness mark caused by the wheel making contact. Eventually the wear to the mainplate causes the winding wheel to lose engagement when hand-winding, causing a 'slipping' feeling through the crown. in handset the sliding pinion won't engage properly and the handsetting will be erratic."

    I see the current 2824-2 tech sheet does indicate 9504 on the surface in question. I have no idea about the pedigree of his documentation (or if there is any) as he doesn't mention the source of his information.

    Sorry for the mis-information; my shortcomings are duly noted.
    No worries. Indeed the area behind the winding pinion does not call for any lubrication in the 2009 tech guide that I have, but most watchmakers I know do lubricate this if the design allows contact there, or if there is any evidence of wear present. Neglecting this can lead to replacement of the entire main plate in a movement like the 2824-2, and this is an example of one that was worn quite badly:



    I had to replace the main plate, as well as the barrel bridge on this 2824-2.

    Some movements are worse for wear in this location than others, and IMO one of the worst is the 6497/6498 due to the heavy yoke spring, which puts a lot of force on the sliding and winding pinion, pressing it up against the main plate and barrel bridge. You can see the wear here in this Panerai that I just finished servicing:



    One of the worst I've seen was in another Panerai:



    Major wear on the main plate:



    And the barrel bridge:



    This one was bad enough that the engagement of the winding pinion and ratchet wheel was getting iffy...

    So tech guides are helpful, but don't always tell you everything you need to know. Keep in mind that these modern tech guides that give you all these oiling and assembly instructions are a fairly modern thing, and in the past you simply had a parts list, and had to use your experience and knowledge as a watchmaker to know how to assemble and lubricate things.

    Cheers, Al

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    Re: ETA 2824-2/Sellita hand winding

    Quote Originally Posted by Archer View Post
    So tech guides are helpful, but don't always tell you everything you need to know. Keep in mind that these modern tech guides that give you all these oiling and assembly instructions are a fairly modern thing, and in the past you simply had a parts list, and had to use your experience and knowledge as a watchmaker to know how to assemble and lubricate things.

    Cheers, Al
    Yes, and when they started getting more detailed it was like "Lubricate with high quality oil", then later with actual oiling points just "heavy oil" "light oil" "grease".

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