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  1. #11
    Member Alysandir's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Respectfully, not certain what this topic has to do with the "dwindling middle class."

    1) what does you turning away from Grand Seiko (to Rolex, of all brands) - because you personally no longer agree with the value proposition of GS - have to do with the state middle class?
    2) you do understand that the greatest indicator for the middle class shrinking is that more middle class are transitioning to the upper class than are being backfilled by those transitioning from lower to middle, right?

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  2. #12
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by heineken4u View Post
    Also, buying a pre-owned Rolex is a much better "value-proposition" than a GS. Not sure why you think otherwise. But anyway, I didn't mean to high jack the thread. I just found myself agreeing with comments made by David.
    Mathematically I don't understand how this can be true. Everything I read says Rolex watches maintain their value better than nearly any other brand, save perhaps Patek. Conversely one criticism of Grand Seiko is that in general they do not hold their value well. If that's true then that means when buying a used Rolex the price you pay as a percentage of what a new one costs will be higher than the price you pay for a used Grand Seiko as a percentage of what a new one would cost. Translated, if you're willing to purchase a used luxury watch, your money goes a lot further buying a used Grand Seiko because it has depreciated faster than a Rolex.
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    Grand Seiko SBGA375, Rolex 116610LN, and lots of comparatively economical watches that "spoke to me" - mostly Seiko.

  3. #13
    Member Heljestrand's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianBinFL View Post
    ....if you're willing to purchase a used luxury watch, your money goes a lot further buying a used Grand Seiko because it has depreciated faster than a Rolex.
    Yes, purchase a pre-loved GS and wear it everyday. Solved. Or do the same with used Rolex. Factor in your service costs and enjoy either.
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  5. #14
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by heineken4u View Post
    Also, buying a pre-owned Rolex is a much better "value-proposition" than a GS. Not sure why you think otherwise. But anyway, I didn't mean to high jack the thread. I just found myself agreeing with comments made by David.

    Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
    Because I can buy GS (SBGE201) for 50% of the price of Rolex (GMT Master II) and I'll be getting a better watch (finishing, movement...). I know the second part is subjective, but I am speaking for myself.

  6. #15
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    As another poster noted, the core GS prices (last time I checked a couple weeks ago) have not changed. And you may be able to get a discount on them if you ask your dealer nicely. Or as others have mentioned, buy used.

    Yes, they introduced some new models at Basel that were priced quite high but I'm not sure that's representative of the brand as a whole. You can still get a lot of watch for your money if you stick to current models.
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  7. #16
    Member bigclive2011's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    I can’t go and buy a Steel Rolex sports model at List in the UK, but I can and recently did, a GS Snowflake.

    So if I buy a Rolex at +50% grey-market, not sure how much of that +50% is going to still be in the watch in 5 years time.

    So if value retention is a major concern when buying new, think maybe the Rolex superiority has fallen off, and as for quality, my Snowflake is on a par if not better than any of my Rolex.
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  8. #17
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by mato123 View Post
    Because I can buy GS (SBGE201) for 50% of the price of Rolex (GMT Master II) and I'll be getting a better watch (finishing, movement...). I know the second part is subjective, but I am speaking for myself.
    You can buy an SBGE201 for a lot less than 50% of the price of a GMT master ii (msrp) , but that's not point. Value retention is what someone spoke about.

    If I purchased a brand new Rolex from AD at msrp, and I'm able to then wear it for a few months/years etc., and if for some unknown reason wanted to sell my Rolex, I would be breaking even, perhaps even come out ahead.

    Conversely. I can buy an SBGE201 right now for 20% discount plus no tax off msrp from an AD. The second I wear this watch, the value has fallen even below then this "20% percent discounted price" I paid.

    So when speaking of value retention, well, GS doesn't have much to offer. There is a reason why you can get GS brand new at heavily discounted. They don't hold value.

    The number one thing GS fans like to regurgitate is... The finishing is second to none. There are many more factors to consider than "finishing" when deciding on a watch. For example, when your GS spring drive needs serving, how's GS customer service? I've heard nothing but horrible experiences in this regard.

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  9. #18
    Member bigclive2011's Avatar
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote “If I purchased a brand new Rolex from AD at msrp, and I'm able to then wear it for a few months/years etc., and if for some unknown reason wanted to sell my Rolex, I would be breaking even, perhaps even come out ahead.”

    What AD have you got then?? Haven’t got any of those where I live!! All mine have shelves empty of the Rolex that everyone wants, and would retain value!! All I can buy is gold or dressy watches, and these can be had at a discount.
    " I am easily impressed by the best" - Winston Churchill.

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  10. #19
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by heineken4u View Post
    You can buy an SBGE201 for a lot less than 50% of the price of a GMT master ii (msrp) , but that's not point. Value retention is what someone spoke about.

    If I purchased a brand new Rolex from AD at msrp, and I'm able to then wear it for a few months/years etc., and if for some unknown reason wanted to sell my Rolex, I would be breaking even, perhaps even come out ahead.

    Conversely. I can buy an SBGE201 right now for 20% discount plus no tax off msrp from an AD. The second I wear this watch, the value has fallen even below then this "20% percent discounted price" I paid.

    So when speaking of value retention, well, GS doesn't have much to offer. There is a reason why you can get GS brand new at heavily discounted. They don't hold value.

    The number one thing GS fans like to regurgitate is... The finishing is second to none. There are many more factors to consider than "finishing" when deciding on a watch. For example, when your GS spring drive needs serving, how's GS customer service? I've heard nothing but horrible experiences in this regard.

    Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
    But the reality is that unless you’ve established some kind of relationship with an AD, often based on previous expenditures, or spent some considerable time on a waiting list, Rolex sports models can’t be bought at msrp. Nowadays even preowned Rolex sports models command above msrp. Not to mention those sold at gray dealerships, where depending on the model, more often than not, they are severely overpriced, or whatever the market is willing to bear, depending on from which angle you look at it. Regardless, at those prices, the lightly used preowned GS, bought at 50% off msrp, is undoubtedly the better value proposition. Like the Rolex, one wouldn’t stand to loose much money if one were to resell it.
    Last edited by T1meout; 1 Week Ago at 22:37.
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  11. #20
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    Re: Grand Seiko and the Dwindling Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by T1meout View Post
    But the reality is that unless you’ve established some kind of relationship with an AD, often based on previous expenditures, or spent some considerable time on a waiting list, Rolex sports models can’t be bought at msrp. Nowadays even preowned Rolex sports models command above msrp. Not to mention those sold at gray dealerships, where depending on the model, more often than not, they are severely overpriced, or whatever the market is willing to bear, depending on from which angle you look at it. Regardless, at those prices, the lightly used preowned GS, bought at 50% off msrp, is undoubtedly the better value proposition. Like the Rolex, one wouldn’t stand to loose much money if one were to resell it.
    Your first sentence is where you're wrong though. Read a previous post from me above. Yes I got lucky, but people are getting lucky all the time. But you're not ever going to get a Rolex at msrp by calling ADs. You gotta put in some work.


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